Sometimes I feel sorry for preachers. They are the easiest people in the world to shoot down because their position as moral leader, guardian, and teacher, elevates them to a level where they almost cannot afford to fail, yet because they are human they screw up and make a mess of things the same as anyone else.
Last Friday an ordained pastor of a church I once attended made something of a fool of herself when she ran out of the birthday party of a mutual friend in an unnecessarily dramatic fashion due to my arrival. Our paths briefly crossed 14 years ago and for reasons that I won’t bore you with here, she managed to develop an intense disliking for me.
I don’t blame her for not liking me, after all, everyone is entitled to their opinions, and our views about her church (The Wirral Christian Centre), which I once attended, are quite different. However, I had hoped that time might have mellowed the newly ordained Pastor and that despite our very different opinions we could politely avoid any kind of friction at our friend’s birthday, but alas it wasn’t to be. Within a week of preaching about forgiveness the pastor had already failed to live up to her own sermon. She had, in effect, fallen at the first furlong.
While I could be angry at her for being so apparently hypocritical, I am in truth just sad that she couldn’t find it in herself or her faith to act in a more ‘Christian‘ way; if not for me, for our mutual friend, his other guests, and for those of her church who had to witness the way she fumbled the situation. Christians often like to ask “What would Jesus do?” and given the chance I would put that question to her right now too.
Make no mistake though, I do understand that it must be hard to be a preacher. Failure to live up to the words that you preach is not just a possibility, it’s surely something of a certainty. To execute the role of preacher successfully one must be able to draw on gigantic reserves of humility, something that is surely difficult to do for someone who is used to commanding a crowd and leading a congregation.
Sadly the pastor involved has chosen not to apologize for her behavior, and has instead allowed our mutual friend, the host, to come under fire for inviting me in the first place. That’s a shame though because I had hoped that despite her initial gaff, the pastor would fix the situation with a quick apology to the host allowing everyone to move on and forget about it.
Maybe the hardest thing of all, for someone in the role of preacher and moral leader, is to remain truthful about their own failings. Allowing yourself to be judged by those whom you are charged with guiding might very well take the biggest leap of faith yet.
—
Hypocrisy is the greatest luxury
In Gods House
Wirral Christian Centre Watch
Wirral Christian Centre
Wrote the following comment on Jun 20, 2008 at 10:11 pm
Some Christians ability to mess up even the simplest of situations never ceases to amaze me. The leadership of the Wirral Christian Centre have always had a knack of treating people like rubbish, I can only assume that this is due to a lack of love for the people they are leading. How else could they treat these people with such disdain.
Many a person has been treated badly by that church, perhaps that is why all their visions and prophecies go unrealised. Perhaps when you remove your congregations backbone, you can hardly expect them to change the world.
I would point out that Jesus was often found in the company of sinners, you never saw Jesus fleeing from their presence. I’m always reminded in these instances of the parable of the unmerciful servant.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 21, 2008 at 10:20 am
are you able to forgive her?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 21, 2008 at 11:07 am
Is forgiveness ever really possible?
I think it takes a truly extraordinary person to ‘forgive’ in its truest context. Most of us let go of something, but do we really forgive?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 21, 2008 at 1:15 pm
You know Edith, her gaff was silly and completely forgivable of course. But it’s how the situation has subsequently been handled by the church which is a little harder to overlook, and therein lies the problem I think. That’s where our difference of opinion stems from.
I believe, like most, that a Christian church should reflect the values of that faith, and as such I find it hard to sit idly by when so directly confronted with actions that show a glaring failure of the church to practice what it preaches. For this reason I will approach the church in question with regards to this issue.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 21, 2008 at 11:13 pm
then, can you forgive the church?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 3:36 am
Jesus really keeps crap company doesn’t he. First hookers and tax collectors and now Christians. The guy really needs some better friends.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 4:56 am
Simon; why bother with her church, or her? Haven’t you better things to do with your time? Clearly she is on her own mission – and seems capable of burning her own bridges quite without your help. I say let it be – this is nothing more than people behaving badly; something that can happen at any time, in any faith, by any person, for any reason. I could get preachy and talk about forgiveness, turning the other cheek, yadayadayada…instead I will get “social worky” and tell you all this negativity is bad for you. Let it go. In time she will face the consequences of her behavior; as do we all. If her behavior hurt your feelings then commit to being mindful not to hurt someone elses…learn from other’s mistakes as well as your own. But as for trying to make reason or logic of it all; or making yourself a better person for having risen above it…well, you could be at that discussion for a long time with many people siding in with opposite arguments, getting really holy about “forgiveness”, or really judgemental about “christians”. As for trying to persuade her “Church” that they are wrong…well, how likely is that?
I don’t pretend to know you that well – but I do know this…you have better stories to tell; and far better ways to spend your time. Let her, and hers, face their own consequences. In due time, we all dance to the piper.
Remind me the next time your down south to teach you about “That’s nice” (said with a pronounced drawl of course). See, here, when she dramatically exited we would have said, ever so southernly, “That’s nice” and the party would have resumed with no further ado. But the story doesn’t work in writing – I’ll just have to tell you, with all the proper inflections, the next time we speak. Till then Simon, I can’t resist closing with – let go, and let God. Don’t you know he just cringes everytime something like this happens. Or maybe not, maybe he just says “That’s nice”.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 6:31 am
I like what susan said.
to Natalie, i would ask where do you get your idea of forgiveness. In my mind, forgiveness is a letting go; in a Christian context, deciding that its not your job to make things right but trust that God will. I think too many times Christians actually think it means more than that so i’m interested in what you meant with your comment.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 9:22 am
Rachel, while I understand your sentiment, I think all too often Christians use leaving things up to God as an excuse for not dealing with something. Some things are out of our control, and should be left, however there are others that we can do something about and should.
A phrase that has stuck with me since I was a teenager is “Pray as if everything depends on God, act as if everything depends on you”
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 2:29 pm
You know it’s funny. I’ve just re-read what I wrote and nowhere have I written that I don’t, can’t, won’t, or haven’t forgiven the pastor or that church. Yet it would seem that for many the default assumption is that by writing about the incident I am showing some kind of malice and lack of forgiveness. I find that interesting.
Where is it written that forgiveness has dominion over justice? Surely the two balance one another. We have the power to forgive, but that power does not then render us mute and unable to speak out against that which is wrong. Indeed, I believe that if we do not stand up for justice then forgiveness is nothing but an empty, dare I say, cowardly gesture.
Forgiveness does not afford us the right to do stand idly by and do nothing in the face of wrong. Forgiveness does not tie our hands when we need to wrestle injustice. Forgiveness is not an alternative to confrontation, but rather a part of it. Forgiveness stands in the company of honorability and truth, qualities that surely cannot stand in the company of a lie.
If I challenge something which I believe to be wrong or misguided, don’t assume this means I can’t also forgive it.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 5:31 pm
when i heard about this i wondered how long it would take simon jones to write lies on the internet about it – from what ive heard your not even a friend of foz so why were you there – your pathetic
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 7:47 pm
Wilvo, my sentiments on forgiveness werent directed at simon. it was a question to natalie. so i’m really unsure what sentiments you’re referring to unless you’ve read into it a bit…
maybe its that i like what Susan said? maybe you could be a little more clear on that.
I think there’s a time and a place to challenge people on their actions, but i think before one does that, one has to be sure that theyre as free of the situation as they can be. I think its important to make your peace with something- that no matter if justice isnt found on this planet you can trust that one day justice will be served. That’s what i really appreciated about what Susan said.
I think beyond that there is a time and a place to confront people when they wrong you and hold people to account but if what I said above doesnt happen, then moving forward with confrontation is really hard. To me they are separate issues. You can not forgive someone and hold them to account, forgive someone and hold them account, or never hold anyone to account. Whatever is chosen on confrontation though, releasing something from yourself is key. and to be clear, i’m not saying simon hasnt done this.
He’s in a situation i would never want to be in and i honestly dont know how I would react. I think in the end its easier for people to surmise what the best choice or decision is, but when push comes to shove, what would we really do?
I’ve never had a pastor treat me like this so i dont really know. I have been hurt terribly by people before though and not been able to do anything about it but try to let it go trusting that God knew the injustice and would take up my cause. That’s the extent of my experience in this situation having never been able to speak out really about the wrongs done to me, so while it looks like i focus on this- it may be that this is all i have.
Blessed truth, that was really out of line. i dont know what good you could possibly have in mind with a comment like that. You should be ashamed of your behavior… but then you may just use this as an opportunity to continue ranting about simons alleged behavior. i hope that’s not the case.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 22, 2008 at 9:42 pm
I don’t believe in God so the idea that God will right wrongs seems delusional to me. However I do believe in forgiveness as a means of promoting personal wellbeing. If Christians believe that you simply need to give all issues that need to be confronted to God then how come they seem to protest so much stuff? The next time I see a Christian protesting outside an abortion clinic I think I’ll suggest they just forgive the clinic staff and move on.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 4:29 am
Lets imagine a world where crimes were not punished but instead were simply forgiven and all justice were put in the hands of ‘God.’ Thieves, rapists, child molesters, and all the evil of the world would walk freely among us commiting crime after crime while society turns the other cheek. Madness!
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Blessed Truth, ‘from what ive heard….’, now i thought Christians weren’t supposed to listen to gossip. Simon was obviously there because he was invited by his friend to help celebrate his 30th birthday.
It sounds to me like you know nothing of Simon, Foz or the situation but instead make unneccessary comments and unfair judgements just on what you have heard. Shame on you.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 12:11 pm
To Blessed Truth,
“when i heard about this i wondered how long it would take simon jones to write lies on the internet about it – from what ive heard your not even a friend of foz so why were you there – your pathetic”
very interesting indeed.
when you heard about what exactly? does this mean you heard of or saw the incident? if you were there you will know the truth. if not you are just party to believing idle gossip as you allude to yourself when you meantion foz.
really, what do you hope to gain from such a comment? i suggest not a lot except a bucketful of extra bitterness.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 4:57 pm
So this saga has been ongoing for 14 years? I would’ve written these folks off a long time ago, but I can appreciate that you are someone with a passion for social justice in all its forms and have a need to confront hypocrisy where you see it. I think this is a good quality.
As some have alluded to though, the return on the investment of your time with this people is likely to diminish as you confront incident after incident. At some point banging against the same wall probably isn’t healthy. I don’t think walking away is giving up, but you obviously know where the breaking point is for you better than I do however.
And to Doug’s comment where he takes the idea of forgiveness to the extreme to make a point – I don’t think forgiveness is the same thing as letting someone get away with something. We have to do our part to confront injustice and do all we can to influence change for the better. But at some point (like I tried to say above with Simon’s example) I think that we have to recognize some things are truly beyond our control/ability to influence and have to let them go. The bigger the offense, the longer it can take to get to this point.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Blessed truth, I’m guessing your one of the poor members of the WCC. I doubt any amount of reasoning will get through to you, after all, you are in a cult, and I can understand how that can sway your thinking. As others have said, you have obviously been listening to gossip, something members of the WCC are very good at.
You really should get your facts straight before you come on here shouting your mouth off about stuff you’ve heard 2nd or 3rd hand, I know that isn’t encouraged in the WCC, but it would stop you looking such an idiot. If my memory serves me correctly, Simon & Foz have been friends for over 10 years, and Simon was at that party at the request of Fozzy. Simon even offered not to attend as to avoid any problems but Foz insisted.
By stating that Simon’s version of events are lies based on the gossip you have heard, shows you lack any sort of objectivity or integrity. Perhaps you can let us know what parts of Simon’s post are lies.
May I suggest you start thinking for yourself for a change.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 24, 2008 at 2:29 am
Interesting exchange…
Maybe this pastor and her sheep walked out because they didn’t really want to stay at the party and saw in Simon the opportunity to escape.
Just a thought, on a spacey tangent, off the cuff:
The way we perceive appearances, namely judgements, are invariably backed up by the set of values we hold, and those are tied in with some sort of survival instinct. Could be survival of ‘me’, of one’s ego, of ‘us’, of the planet, that colours your judgements.
You can apply this to extremes too, with extreme results. Usually it’s difficult to figure precisely everything behind a judgement because of the complexity and the entanglments of contradictory values.
So you can choose detachment, the behaviour where judgment are sometimes not acted upon or viewed for what they are (a set of mind-fabricated stuff). Or you can choose survival of Simon, ego and all, and battle on.
But the church people also want their ego, their “truth” to survive.
Just a thought.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Blessed Truth, thank you very much for your comment, though I’m sorry you chose to use a handle rather than your real name.
I’m not really going to address your comment because others have already done so, however I would like to share this picture of Foz’s rather fun printed invitation. I think this should confirm that while I have little doubt there are lies relating to this incident, those lies are not coming from me.
As for the question of how much time I have invested into confronting the behviour of this church and how effective that has been, I will confess that I have perhaps not put enough time and energy into it. This whole affair has actually made me see that the subtle approach I have taken thus far is probably a little too subtle and therefore needs to be re-examined.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 8:53 pm
It seems to me that justice and forgiveness are not antithetical realities. A person who sought to pursue justice yet who harbored unforgiveness is not likely to have a clear enough vision to genuinely pursue justice. Instead in the name of justice that person would pursue some kind of vindictive agenda that would only satisfy their wounded ego, and would not very likely provide any kind of equilibrium or restoration.
Related to this, a person who has forgiven another person is not by that act of forgiveness released from the responsibility to pursue justice. If a person mugged me for example, I could forgive that person and yet see to it that through legal recourse the mugger served time for his misdeed. My forgiveness would then perhaps be seen in my willingness to visit that person in prison, acknowledge his humanity inspite of his behavior, and be willing on a personal level to be reconciled with him.
Simon, I can completely see how it is possible for you to have forgiven these people and yet continue to draw attention to behavior that continues to undermine their Christian testimony. I am of the persuasion that it is not always easy for me to discern my own heart, and so I appreciate it when people speak into my life from their perspective, and yet this does not mean that I have to accept what is being offered as what is true about me. It is just another avenue for self examination. In the end, you have to determine what is prompting you in this pursuit. As I am sure you well know, none of us can really tell you what is going on in your heart.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 9:03 pm
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
you can tick all those boxes – you should never have been at that party in the first place – you are a liar and you attack the centre constantly – you are pathetic
Wrote the following comment on Jun 23, 2008 at 10:56 pm
What on earth happened to forgiving people 70 x 7 times a day?? I really want to say something in defense of the church but i can’t cos there isn’t anything to say.
I am so ashamed of it all. As a christian, one of the first things i learned is that God has given us FREE WILL.
Even God will never dictate to us. I do not think anyone pastor or not should decide for us who our friends are.
I have read the bible and it teaches me to love everyone-WE ALL LOVE YOU SIMON !!
To Blessed Truth, Matt 5:44-46
Stop being such a disgrace!!!!!!!
Why are you so bitter?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 24, 2008 at 12:04 am
So, Blessed Truth, you going to have the guts and use your real name? My name by the way is Will Woodhouse. Are you going to substantiate any of your allegations? Do you know Simon Jones, or are you judging him on what others have told you? Its funny how some members of the WCC don’t get kicked out for sexual immorality, perhaps its because who they know.
What about false prophets, what does your bible tell you about them? Some would say your Pastor has slandered people, perhaps you should dissociate yourself from him? Oh, and I think you just slandered Simon, so don’t have anything to do with yourself.
The problem with Christians like you is that you’ve forgotten what a dirty rotten sinner you are and feel its your job to go round judging people on God’s behalf.
Oh and by the way, chances are 50% of your youth group are having sex. The problem with being so judgemental, is that people hide their sin, they live a lie. Another reason why your church is weak and achieves little. Church should be the one place were you can be honest, unfortunately, in your church, honesty is punished.
Blessed Truth, why not ask God to help you understand grace, because you clearly have no idea what that means.
He who is without sin and all that.
Is that a plank in your eye or are you just pleased to judge me?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 24, 2008 at 12:20 am
Oh and another thing, why do you single out sexual immorality?
What about fat people? You got any fat people in the church Blessed? Well, you should kick those greedy sinners out shouldn’t you? Waddling around the church flaunting their sin of greed, they don’t even try to hide it do they? At least those sexual sinners do it in private, imagine if they were as brazen as those fatties!
Double standards you see blessed, you need to be consistent when you deal with these sinners.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 24, 2008 at 1:56 pm
You know Ije, I think it was just 70 x 7, not 70 x 7 a day, so maybe I’ve now exceeded the 490 times forgiveness limit :-)
As for Blessed Truth’s comment, all I will say is that if the Bible were written today it might have read “With such a man do not even eat, or comment on his blog.” Having said that though, you should know I am delighted that you’ve taken the time to comment, even if you weren’t able to summon the courage to use your real name.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 24, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Surely a pastor should revert the the teachings of their own faith and turn the other cheek! I for one would put my differences aside for a few hours to be there for a good friend and I’m not even the least bit religous.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 25, 2008 at 5:04 am
Matt, I get that you don’t think forgiveness is letting people get away with something, but it sure reads like some people think just that.
I’m not religious so you will have allow for the fact that maybe I’m not super familiar with how stuff works, but if Simon, or anyone for that matter, wants to take a stand against hypocrisy in the church then I would have thought that you christians would be right there with him?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 26, 2008 at 1:01 pm
Nice to see ‘Blessed Truth’ had the courage of their convictions, and had the decency to come back here to substantiate their allegations!
Just another loveless, and spineless cult member, can’t really expect much more from them I suppose.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 26, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Simon, I am so sorry that you were treated like that by Karen and others. I’m dissapointed to learn that one of our pastors would think that bahaviour is acceptable and justified.
I’ve enjoyed looking through your blogs this evening, especially those in the Faith and Religion catagory. I particularly liked the one titled “In Gods House.” I am glad you are “undeterred” and hope that despite the poor behaviour of Karen, you will containue to remain “underterred.”
The Lord loves you Simon and He wants the best for your life. God bless you.
Deuteronomy 31:6
Wrote the following comment on Jun 27, 2008 at 12:46 am
Thanks for your comment, 1Voice. I appreciate your words of encouragement. I’ve also now added a link to ‘In God’s House‘ to the foot of this post.
Just so you know, the reason why your comment didn’t appear online right away is because, like all comments from new people, it was held for moderation. I was out so I was unable to approve it quickly. I hope you won’t mind that I took the liberty of deleting the duplicate comments.
Thanks again for your words of encouragement.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 27, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Wow,
This has been an interesting exchange of comments about a post. I couldn’t make the party, and therefore did not see the incident first hand. I have heard about it from other people, and maybe that makes me not the correct person to comment.
What I will say, is that I am not a religious person, religion presents certain problems to me that I cannot ignore, there are too many questions and I cannot honestly put my whole heart into following any religion, so I don’t.
I will say though, that Simon has been a friend of mine now for nearly 10 years, and over the years has become a good friend who I would trust with anything. If people come to his blog and throw about accusations of lies etc, they need to think about what they are doing. Would I come to your house, and urinate on your children? Or throw a brick through your window, then ask for it back?
See the WCC for what they really are, which in my opinion is a cult! I’ve personally seen the awful treatment of a number of people who have attended the ‘centre’ over the years, and the disgraceful ways the Pastors there have treated these people.
To Blessed Truth – Get a life, grow up, and if you aren’t brave enough to even give your name, then you aren’t much of a strong willed person.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 27, 2008 at 9:08 pm
I find it interesting that everyone from the WCC uses a false name, whether they support Simon or not.
Wrote the following comment on Jun 28, 2008 at 1:06 pm
makes you think that they have something to hide?
Wrote the following comment on Jun 30, 2008 at 3:04 am
You know, I don’t think it’s because they have something to hide so much as they’re afraid of having their own opinions attributed to them. You see, the WCC is an extremely oppressive organization that has time and time again dealt hasrshy and often times unfairly with the congregation.
I don’t think it’s at all unfair to suggest that ‘1Voice’ hid their true identity because they were being critical of leadership and feared reprisals for being disloyal. However, I think the fact that people have chosen to hide their own opinions in this way is very telling indeed and should be seen as a warning sign of just how dangerous, oppressive, and manipulative their church is.
I should make it clear though that I am pleased to see people like ‘1Voice’ expressing their opinions, even if their true identities remain hidden. It does at least show that there are people inside the WCC who are as concerned as myself and the many others outside the church who feel there is a very real need to be concerned at the way it conducts itself.
Without wishing to sound overly ‘churchy,’ I think one of the problems with the WCC is that its membership are swayed more by the experiences of their faith rather than the reality of their religion. By that I mean that they are building their beliefs upon their feelings and experiences, and hanging on every word of their leader, Pastor Paul EptonPastor PauEpton.
The congregation turnover is extremely high, and I would suggest that is because the faith of the followers at the WCC is often akin to houses built upon the sand. The moment a big wave comes in their faith can be washed away in an instant. If those people were more diligent in studying their Bibles I think they would become more engaged in their faith and less engaged purely by their church. I also think a more Biblically knowledgeable congregation would have been able to step in and help prevent the leadership from veering as far of course as they appear to have gone.
In a recent conversation I had with a member of the WCC, I suggested their church wasn’t truly Bible based. I expressed my opinion about it being unbalanced and too heavily biased toward experiences rather than knowledge. They strongly disagreed, insisting “if I felt that it was not a bible based church my spirit would tell me.” – I could have made the obvious point to them, but there are only so many time you can clang a bell in the hope the deaf might hear it.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 1, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Oh dear oh dear… what a shitstorm and no mistake.
Those of you who know me, already know my position on the whole situation, suffice it to say I was at the event. It was a good night, those of us who actually stayed had a good evening.
With regards to those people who have something to say to simon of a derogatory fashion, do you not think that it would be worthwhile actually engaging in a discussion with him rather than posting false, potentially slanderous comments on an open forum. Simon has always been willing to have frank discussions with people, and if you want to know more of his opinions, or to better understand his viewpoint, then I would recommend that you actually email him.
You don’t have to accept his viewpoint, but it might be an enlightening discussion, and even if it just allows you to reaffirm your own beliefs of the WCC, then surely it will have been a worthwhile discussion.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 1, 2008 at 7:10 pm
suggesting the chuch isn’t bible based just shows how little you know – pastor paul preaches from God’s word THE BIBLE – you really are absolutely pathetic!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 1, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Don’t forget the devil himself knows the bible inside out too!
There are many different ways of interpreting the same message whether it be in the bible or an email.
The art of listening, reading or being a member of a congregation in how you choose to interpret the message. Therein, i feel, lies the problem.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 1, 2008 at 11:44 pm
BT, open you ears and your mind. Its quite obvious you’ve not heard a single thing anyone has said. Its never a good idea to have such a closed mind.
The word of God also says to stone adulterers, why don’t you do that? Paul preaches bits of God’s word and interprets that, the problem is that you think he’s infallible and what he says is always right, that’s not healthy BT.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 2, 2008 at 12:00 am
Blessed Truth. You might also consider that the Rev. Fred Phelps also preaches from the very same Bible that your pastor does. Is his message sound?
Wrote the following comment on Jul 2, 2008 at 1:37 am
Indeed, Fred Phelps does preach from the same bible. The problem is that anything can be taken out of context, or misquoted, and in that instance it can be used to give a message that was not intended. I am sure that you would not assert that adulterous women be stoned, which is what the bible states should happen (Deuteronomy 22:21-23).
From my understanding, the point that Simon is trying to make is not that the church’s fundamental teachings are not bible based. Rather it is the actions that are taken outside of those teachings that do not follow the “word of god”.
He is not arguing that those people who go to the church are being mislead in terms of what they believe. Indeed, I know that Simon has quite a number of christian friends, and not once has he expressed any disbelief or incredulity at their faith. Rather he has often used it to examine his own outlook on life.
What is being argued is that they are, perhaps, being misled. He is saying that he believes that the structure of that church is very much command and control. You do not express any criticism, you do not express any doubt about the actions of the leadership. You simply do as you are told, and if you do not then you suffer the wrath of the “elite”.
If you have any problems understanding what is being said, then it is perhaps that you are not carefully reading what is being said, and reading what has been said as a criticism of yourself.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 2, 2008 at 4:35 am
I am so saddened by all of the posts by the person called “Blessed Truth.” I am so sorry to tell you that the “blessed truth” is that you have become a Pharisee. Jesus verbally ripped people like you apart. Read the Gospels and pray that the Spirit of Jesus, the one who called sinners his friends, will change your heart and open your eyes to the lies you seem to have been spoon-fed for far too long.
And I am happy for you Simon, that so many of your friends have come to your defense in these replies. We all know you’re not perfect (and neither are we!). I just hope you know that people care and that we aren’t all Pharisees!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 3, 2008 at 12:32 pm
do you know what it makes me angry everytime i hear somthing like this!!!
ceartain people from that place need to get a life! they are pathetic. the sad thing is it will never change
Wrote the following comment on Jul 5, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Well after reading most of this rubbish i have decided to have my say, first of all from a EX member of wcc for where i spent the worsed part of 12 years. Simon you had left before i arrived but from the circle i was involved in i was told never to speak to you or i would be asked to leave. this is from a church that preaches forgiveness and to love one another. Yet i was told what to do. But over the years through mutal friends i am made aware of situations, including this one, as for karen i think she need to take a step back reflect on her actions and say sorry to foz, as being around after you left karen was well aware of the friends foz keeps and so therefore should have expected a least one person who has been expelled from wcc to be there. her reaction was totally uncalled for, ok fair enough if she did’nt want to be around you she could have left gracefully.end of story, but to go running to the ‘prophet’ paul epton like his little sheep was childish. but then again , what did you expect? i bet she could’nt wait.
As for comment by BLESSED TRUTH you say your a member of wcc, i take it you dont get to involved as my name sake i was vey close to certain ppl at wcc and spent many of nights at the eptons house, you talk about sexual imorality please tell me then how a member is found having sex in the centre by a leader and its pushed under the carpet, and the worship team are out on a sat night drinking and sleeping with boyfriend/girlfriends then teaching YOU and leading YOU in worship to your God.relationships that involve sex before marrage and still worship YOUR god. How do i know this? i wonder, was it because i’ve heard it or maybe i was involved. to make a statement of truth it would have to be the later. This is not the reason or reasons I left. so maybe your need to pay more attention to what is going on but then again you have been blinded by the cult, another thing as a member of another elim church if paul is such a honered man y do alot of elim ministers despise him and what he stands for, I wonder!.
Hi will.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 5, 2008 at 10:52 pm
I would like to say that i was told that i could either be a part of the church or be friends with a certain person, wcc should practice what they preach ie forgiveness! I dont no simon but i have heard about him from people and i think it is totally out of order what karen has done,she is a very sad lady and needs to find a man. Wcc judge people all the time and paul epton needs to take a look at his own family ie vicky miss innocent i think not, well i no not. As for blessed truth well your just shallow and you dont deserve are comments really, your all fake in wcc and all need to get a life!!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 5, 2008 at 11:19 pm
in response to Vicky Taylor i myself was told not to see a really close friend i had known for many years because she was of the devil!!!! i was told by paul epton if a chose to stay friends then i would have to leave the church there and then. that came as a real shock that my pastor would expect me to cut all contact with this person in question!!
“blessed truth” if simon jones is so evil why on earth are you looking at his website!!!
infact let me answer my own question its because your listening to idle gossip and have got nothing else to do but come on here and write nasty comments and you cant even reveal your own name. you are just so spineless.
to anyone who is going to read this from wcc i am not bitter i just want to voice my opinion.
poor fozzys birthday was ruined thanks to karen in MAN and other pathetic people from that place. and yes Vicky, why is it that so many other pastors from elim despise him???? well thats another long story for another time!!!!!!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 6, 2008 at 4:26 pm
So many similar stories, so many damaged lives :-(
If only there was somewhere more permanent for people to tell their stories ;-)
Wrote the following comment on Jul 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm
The Wirral Christian Centre is a blight on the Wirral. The number of people who have been hurt and treated disgracefully by that church, and in particular Paul Epton, is utterly shocking.
As a committed Christian living here on the Wirral I find it deeply frustrating to stand by and watch this organisation continue to inflict its own brand of oppressive and divisive religion upon people who might otherwise really know the liberation of the Lord Jesus. It really is no exaggeration at all to say that my heart sinks when I think of the people who continue to get caught up in that cult like place.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 10, 2008 at 6:34 pm
You are all pathetic people with nothing better to do with your lives! The fact that you are taking time to slag off certain people and WCC says it all. You must be very bitter and twisted people that is all I can say! Are you still friends with this Foz?
Wrote the following comment on Jul 10, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Hi there ‘Sad & Bitter.’
Yes, I am indeed still mates with Foz. Why would I not be? I felt bad for Foz that some of his WCC friends embarrassed him at his birthday party. But their bad behavior doesn’t reflect on Foz, who after all invited me to his party because we were, and still remain, friends.
So you think that people who have left comments here are “very bitter and twisted people”; that’s fair enough, you’re entitled to your opinion. But perhaps I can ask you a question… How bitter and twisted do you suppose people have to be in order to justify storming out of their friends birthday party just because I turned up?
Wrote the following comment on Jul 10, 2008 at 8:37 pm
Ah the old bitter and twisted line. Am I bitter? I dont think so. Are those that remember the holocaust bitter and twisted, shouldn’t the Jews get over it? You can remember something and talk about it, you can even be angry about something without being bitter and twisted about it.
I’m angry that after all these years the WCC are still ruining peoples lives. I am no longer affected by my experiences at the WCC, I am a much happier person since I left that place. However I think its important to speak out and let others know they are not alone.
Paul Epton will shout about those he has brought to Christ, I just wonder if he hasn’t put more people off.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 11, 2008 at 7:11 pm
why is it people think your bitter because you speak out against what you think is wrong?! are people expected to sit back and forget when they get hurt. well maybe some people do but not me! people need to take a close look at what goes on in that place and the way people are delt with if they dont bow down to paul epton. im sorry but paul epton isnt god!! i think its shocking the way so many people have been hurt over the years.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 14, 2008 at 7:44 pm
Your answerable to God not man!!! At the end of the day you will stand alone in front of God and be answerable for your actions! No one is perfect! You all must lead very sad lives if you ask me! So, what people get hurt everyday get over it and move on with your lives!!!!!! WCC isn’t ruining lives you need to get your facts right!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 14, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Ah, the old abdicating responsibility, and leaving it all to God line. This is not what the bible teaches! Yes you are answerable to God but the bible has a lot to say about injustice and standing against it. Perhaps you should study it, rather than having it spoon fed to you by the leadership. Tell me, did the walls of Jerihco fall on their own? What about leading the Israelites out of Egypt, did God need to use Moses or could he have done it without him?
If God doesn’t require us to get involved, why is the bible full of stories of God using people to achieve his purposes? How far do you take this not getting involved line? Should we not have stood up to Hitler? What about intervening in a mugging?
Oh WCC has and is ruining lives. I can name at least 10 peoples lives that have been severely damaged by the WCC, and I haven’t been involved in the place for over 10 years. Just because you haven’t experienced it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 15, 2008 at 12:57 pm
‘Sad and Bitter’, did you ignore my question? It would seem so. Allow me put it to you again; How “bitter and twisted” do you suppose people have to be in order to justify storming out of their friends birthday party just because I turned up?
One thing I think is interesting is the reluctance of people to attribute their names to comments they leave in relation to the WCC. To a certain extent I can understand those who leave negative comment doing so anonymously (though I still find that disappointing). But what really perplexes me is why those who are speaking up in defense of the WCC are doing so under cover of anonymity, even going so far as to register their comment, as you did, with a fake email address.
If the WCC is so great and you’re so happy to speak up in defense of the place, then why are you not willing to use your real name? A comment from a faceless person who calls themselves ‘Blessed Truth’ of ‘Sad and Bitter people’ is hardly a glowing endorsement now is it?
Wrote the following comment on Jul 21, 2008 at 10:32 am
You are all very sad people. Can I ask a question do you go to church yourself? Do you actually “have a relationship with God”. You should be more concerned about your own relationship with God than people. Will Woodhouse who do you actually think you are anyway you are Simons little side kick! You even look like him how sad are you! Get a life!!!!! Grow Up!!!!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 21, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Oh dear ‘sad and bitter people’,
do you not realise any coherent argument you may have had, has been completely destroyed by your childish personal attack.
this is certainly not the way to conduct yourself if “you have a relationship with God”
Wrote the following comment on Jul 21, 2008 at 5:10 pm
well well well this has stirred up some trouble on the internet hasnt it! from people you seem to say there not interested in things that go on outside of the church,maybe thats because the pastor tells you, your not to be in contact with anybody who has attended WCC and left for whatever reason, have any of you actually took a step back and asked yourself why your not allowed in contact with ‘ex’ members…maybe truth will be uncovered…..
Wrote the following comment on Jul 21, 2008 at 6:45 pm
Simon, I think maybe the pastor you wrote about is feeling, hmm, sad and bitter perhaps? :)
Wrote the following comment on Jul 21, 2008 at 9:24 pm
No sad & bitter, we are not sad, I for one am happier than I have ever been. You actually don’t seem to have a coherent argument, again not surprising as the WCC has always been made up of a large number of people who are hard of thinking. Why do you seem unable to understand that just because people decide to share their experiences and stories of the WCC, that doesn’t make them sad or bitter? Are Christians sad & bitter when they remember Christ on the cross? By your rules they must be, as they keep banging on about it.
I’m perfectly happy with my relationship with God thanks, I don’t bother him and he doesn’t bother me :-)
As for looking like Simon, that’s so funny :-) Do you mean we both have goatees? We look nothing like each other. There are few people from the WCC who remember me, so who are you? Sue King or Karen Inman? I’m guessing Sue. Come on sad and bitter, be one of the only ones from the WCC to put a real name to your opinion. What are you scared of?
Anyway, thanks for treating me how Christ himself would have done, with gentleness, kindness, and love. Nice to know there are Christians out there that are Christ-like, a rare thing these days, especially at the WCC.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 22, 2008 at 10:07 am
sad and bitter your the one that needs to grow up! coming on here and making childish comments. your obviously to much of a coward to reveal your name!!!! the only sad person on here is you! lets be honest you cant have much of a life being told what you can and cant do!!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 22, 2008 at 6:10 pm
Actually I am not Sue King or Karen Inman, I have just heard alot about this Will Woodhouse and seen picutre on the internet of you! I just wonder you need to get a life yourself! Get over WCC and move on with your life criticing people and places won’t help you!!!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 22, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Beware people who use more than one unit of punctuation to illustrate their point. It indicates a mind that is, on the balance of probability, unhinged.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 22, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Sad & bitter, you are obviously reading what I’m writing, but are either unable or unwilling to understand the points I’m making, your poor grasp of the English language indicates the former (that’s the first one). For the last time, I’m not sad or bitter, I have a very full & fulfilling life, and I’m over the WCC.
As for the last sentence (which I can just about make sense of), do you mean criticising? I have already explained in detail why I am still interested in the WCC, it’s a shame you have not responded to these points, but then I doubt you have the ability to coherently respond to rational argument. I’ve pussy footed around so far, and subtly inferred that you’re stupid, however its obvious I need to be a little more direct, so here goes, you’re an idiot.
As mentioned earlier, if you don’t know me, then you are listening to gossip about me, which is a naughty thing for Christians to do.
Here is a suggestion Sad & Bitter, try reading your Bible, and stop listening to a man reading it and explaining it for you. If you do, God might actually have an opportunity to change you.
Please post a link to the picture of me on the internet were I look like Simon, as long as it’s not the one on hornyamateurs.com ;-)
If there were any words in this post that you didn’t understand, please ask and I’ll happily explain, or I hear dictionaries are quite useful.
You take care now.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 23, 2008 at 6:19 pm
Sorry but I have got better things to do with my life than waste my time with pathetic people who have nothing better to do with their time other than to criticise people! Get over WCC move on with your life!
Wrote the following comment on Jul 23, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Sad & bitter, did you actually read any of my previous post?
Here is how a debate works, one person raises a point, the other counters is, and the exchange continues. The best you seem to be able to manage is to repeat the same 2 sentences over and over again.
Jesus must be really pleased he has someone as sharp and articulate as you on his team :-p
One parting thought S&B, as long as there are nasty, judgemental dimwits like yourself around, there will be people like Simon, myself and others to hold up a mirror to you and your church. That’s not sad & bitter, its called balance.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 27, 2008 at 12:04 am
I don’t know anything about the church in question here, but I think maybe you’ve encountered a cult church Simon.
Cult churches are sadly all too common these days. They’re often outwardly ordinary Bible believing churches that have sadly just lost their way at some point. A central feature of an abusive church is control-oriented leadership. The leader in an abusive church is usually dogmatic, self-confident, arrogant, and wielding an absolute authority without any real or meaningful accountability. Members are often manipulated using guilt, peer pressure, intimidation, and threats of being cast out of the church in disgrace. Often harsh discipline is carried out publicly to promote ridicule and humiliation. If the church you wrote about displays any of those characteristics then it’s a abusive cult church.
The angry attacks you have provoked remind me of something David Johnson wrote in his book The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. In reference to what he calls the “can’t talk rule” often employed by abusive and cult-like churches he writes. “If you speak about the problem out loud, YOU are the problem. In some way you must be silenced or eliminated. Those who do speak out are most often told, ‘We didn’t have all these problems until you started shooting your mouth off. Everything was fine before you started stirring things up.'”
Reading your post I feel sorry for your friend and I wonder if he is aware that he’s in an abusive situation? Probably not I suspect. In fact most Christians don’t think they could get caught up in a cult or an abusive cult-like church whereas precisely the opposite is true. It is the deeply spiritual people and those who want to make a difference who are the ones most vulnerable to be blindsided and join a cult or a cult-like church.
I don’t know where you are with the Lord Simon, but you identified some good points in comment 35. Many of the comments here are dreadfully sad, and had it not been for them I’m not sure I would have felt that motivated to make a comment myself, but I would hope that people who read the comments of particularly “Blessed truth” and “Sad and bitter people” will understand that these people may very well be victims if indeed the church in question really is an abusive or cult church.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 31, 2008 at 12:03 am
Well it finally looks like the dust has settled on this post. The comments have certainly made this an engaging read. Even people who have chosen not to comment have emailed me and called me to talk about the back-and-forth on here.
The original incident that inspired this post is old news now. The church has already moved on to new gossip and fresher controversies, and the pastor involved never did admit to any error in judgement.
Of course, fozzy and I are still mates, despite the church leaderships idle threats. Indeed we just spent a weekend in one anothers company enjoying the frivolity of a ‘stag weekend’ in Edinburgh. Life has marched on as it always does.
I wonder how the comments here have been interpreted by those in authority within the Wirral Christian Centre? I know they dismiss my criticisms as being the product of bitterness and vengeance, but even among the few who have come to find this post there would seem to be a significant number that have tales to tell of how the Wirral Christian Centre leadership badly treated them, abusing not only their position of authority, but their role as Pastor.
Perhaps those in authority will simply dismiss these people just as they have dismissed others, but in this small group it’s surely alarming that there would seem to be so many who are willing to speak out against the church and so few who are willing to speak up coherently and constructively in its defense.
Maybe the reason for the lack of coherent and constructive engagement from WCC church members is because they felt this conversation was a ‘lost cause,’ a pointless task that would ultimately be fruitless. If that’s the case then it’s sad, but sadder still that they have allowed the likes of ‘Blessed Truth” and “Sad and bitter people” to represent them by default, showing all the love of a cowardly hateful cultist hell bent on rebutting any criticism.
I have little doubt that there are intelligent, kind, gracious and loving people within the Wirral Christian Centre who could have eloquently commented on this post countering the embarrassing and repetitive comments from those who could only throw insults from behind the assumed safety of a nickname and a fake email address. For whatever reasons they have chosen to remain silent, a trait that I would suggest lies at the very heart of why there are so many disaffected former members of the Wirral Christian Centre in the first place.