What’s wrong with the Church? Why is it that less and less people are going to Church these days? Is it because society no longer feels the need to be seen as ‘being good?’ Or is it because ‘the church’ as a body (particularly the Christian church) simply doesn’t know how to speak to people anymore? What do YOU think is wrong with the church?
I’ve been reading a Xanga of a pastor from Texas, a guy who, on the face of things, seems like ‘a good bloke’ as we would say here in England. Admittedly he does keep a loaded Glock 9mm in his closet, as well as a 12 guage shotgun and a 30-06 rifle, but he lives in the wild wild west where gunfights are common place and a part of everyday life (according to his friend). But aside his need for firepower, ‘Deputy David’ as i like to call him, seems like a guy who is at least trying to do ‘God’s great work.’
In a recent post on his Xanga he posed the question to his largely Christian readership ‘what would the perfect church look like to you?’ It’s an interesting question to ask in the ‘land of the free’ where the religion of consumerism outstrips all others, and where vast shopping malls seem to have become cathedrals of the new age.
The answers he got were interesting, if not unexpected. Some nice ideas were raised by church attending Christian folk, but nothing ground-breaking. I pondered the question myself, wondering what indeed would be ground-breaking? How could church as we understand it evolve? I drew a blank.
I don’t know much about the history of the Christian church. By that I don’t mean Jesus and the Bible, I mean the church as in the people who get up early on Sunday morning to sing songs and listen to a sermon. But it seems to me that in the last 100 years or so at least, the formula of ‘church’ hasn’t really changed that much. I might even argue that the little change there has been is out of step with the way in which society and culture has changed in the same time period.
So while Deputy David, the gunslinging Texas pastor, might be curious as to what makes a church perfect for you, I’d like to ask you what makes the church not so perfect for you. In other words I’d like to know why it is that you DON’T go to Church. Not because I want to preach some hellfire and damnation you understand, I’m just trying to get a grip on what it is that prevents so many of us from finding our place in the modern church, however modern that may or may not be.
The formula of a Sunday morning service with singing, notices then a sermon (or ‘message’ if you use the modern term) is tried and tested and serves the church well. But aside the introduction of drums, electric guitars, a relaxed dress code and the occasional tattooed pastor, has anything really changed in church?
If Christians believe that the unsaved are destined to “burn in eternal hell” surely the church should be looking for something that serves those people rather than itself. The concept of a Sunday service seems, to me at least, rather outdated, insular, and uninviting. It feels like flat-pack fellowship to me. Quick and easy to set up, a bit cumbersome and awkward at times, often coated in an attractive polished veneer, but ultimately disposable.
The doors of the church may well be open wide, but it looks like these days it’s going to take more than the offer of a free cup of coffee and eternal life to get people to walk in.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 11:19 am
The only church that I’ve felt comfortable in has been Universalist and we don’t have one in my current community.
I’m still in recovery from Catholocism.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 11:26 am
Honestly? I have a hard time with going to church because I know I’ll either be judged because I’m not exactly the role model for purity and goodness and because I’m not ready to be convinced to give up my evil ways. In other words I haven’t gotten all I need to get out of sins yet.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 11:54 am
“The formula of a Sunday morning service with singing, notices then a sermon (or ‘message’ if you use the modern term) is tried and tested and serves the church well. But aside the introduction of drums, electric guitars, a relaxed dress code and the occasional tattooed pastor, has anything really changed in church?If Christians believe that the unsaved are destined to “burn in eternal hell” surely the church should be looking for something that serves those people rather than itself. The concept of a Sunday service seems, to me at least, rather outdated, insular, and uninviting.”
-Word up. Thats why my church is so awesome. I wish you could come. It’s all about serving others and showing them what God can do in their life. And its hella fun.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 11:55 am
Well, I don’t go to church because I don’t believe in any sort of god. I think that much of the church’s decline in attendance may be down to its failure to strike a chord of relevance with modern culture in the UK. Defined structure is something that has gone very much out of fashion in many aspects of our society. People like to do what they want, when they want to. The preceived rigidity of church commitments does not satisfy this desire for relative chaos.OK, I’m not sure I understand what I wrote, but…
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 12:25 pm
This pics you have here and the gunslinging pastor remind me of a “Non-Denominational church” ie….overzealous bible thumpers asking for money on tv. It seems to me w/ the media you can sit in your jammies on a Sunday morn and watch whatever denomination you wanted. Getting up and going requires giving up a Sunday…the day of rest. We are lazy creatures a product of overstressed lives. I work on Sunday so thats my excuse :)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 1:51 pm
As one who goes to church for a living..haha….I must say “thank you” to Simon for starting this thread. Much more interesting for me. I enjoy hearing what others have to say about what consumes most of my world: unfortunately. I say “unfortunately” because my occupation can tend to keep me removed from those who rarely come to church….which is a bit ironic when you think about it..I find it easy to understand why those like jasewastedofspace above don’t show up – I have a dear friend who is athiest and she and I have many conversations about her perception of religion and christianity. What is really good and helpful to hear is from folks who do have some sort of faith in Christ yet have removed themselves from the church…and also those who still feel the jury is out on whether or not they even want or need something like that. Our culture is changing drastically…and yes, Simon, you are right…the church (in her form) has changed relatively little. I think she can stand to change forms without losing her essence.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 3:22 pm
I think that Bush is going to burn in hell, and that once he does, the blight of people like him being associated with the church may lift a bit.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 28, 2006 at 4:11 pm
omg to the above comment! umm just a weird tidbit….I saw a blog called Jesus and Booze. why I am mentioning this is I dunno. I just want to leave now its getting weird here Simon :)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 3:05 am
Some good comments so far. Sadly though, despite having 99 subscribers (I lost my 100th) I doubt that there will be many more comments despite the fact that a lot of people come here and read this stuff. That’s a shame really because I like a good discussion. Anyway…Wookit said something I related to. “I haven’t gotten all I need to get out of sins yet.
“I’m right there with you Wookit. The Church life looks to those on the outside to be pretty boring. From the outside looking in it seems to be more about the things you can’t do than the things you can. No fun in that.
But Beloved_wretch says her church is “hella fun.” Well, let me ask you Beloved_wretch, how exactly is it fun? You don’t do the flat-pack fellowship formula of singsong, notices, sermon & coffee? What makes your church different and fun really?
I should say for Specialagentbarbie and everyone else that ‘Deputy David’ doesn’t seem to me to be an “overzealous bible thumper.” She also said something interesting to me; “It seems to me w/ the media you can sit in your jammies on a Sunday morn and watch whatever denomination you wanted. Getting up and going requires giving up a Sunday.
“I’m not sure you can be a Christian without making some sacrifices to an otherwise selfish and greedy western life, though giving up your Sunday morning relaxation time isn’t what I’m thinking of. I think that Christians should be examining every aspect of their lives and their impact on the world. Giving up sex (outside of marriage) and Sunday mornings is surely the least of things God himself would worry about?
Christians wearing shirts and sneakers made by children in African sweatshops would surely lead to the Good Lord wanting some kind of explanation. Christians drinking softdrinks made at the expense of fresh water for others, wouldn’t God be angry at that? Christians driving huge SUV’s and being generally wasteful, wouldn’t God have something to say about that?
I think the reason why many people don’t go to Church, is that religion isn’t about being tolerant and caring. It’s more about being judgmental and intolerant. It only takes a few words from idiots like the Rev. Jerry Falwell to ruin the good work being done by countless others.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 5:44 am
No problem Topher, and no worries with not commenting much. I’m not whinging too much about that, I enjoy writing this stuff and continue to do so primarily for that reason and encouraged by the fact that I can see than many people are veiwing the site despite not actually commenting for whatever reason.
The question you posed and answered of course was the same as Deputy David’s question from the Houston Vinyard. I linked to his blog in my post. He has some interesting discussions on his blog, it’s worth subscribing to if you’re into discussing that stuff.
As for people being raised from the dead in Africa… forgive me for being somewhat sceptical. I fully realise that God, if we assume such a being is real, could do all things without limitations. However my human nature of doubt just taps me on the shoulder when I hear that people have been raised from the dead. As the singer/song writer, Paul Brady, once wrote, “Who could see heaven and not want to stay.”
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 6:38 am
Deputy David here. This is a great discussion topic Simon. Thanks for posting it. I agree with you and Wookit about the “I haven’t gotten all I need to get out of sins yet.”. But my suspicion is that the sin would loose some of it’s appeal if we “could see heaven” as your quote from Paul Brady says. I think that is exactly what Topher was saying – If we could have more of the real deal (“heaven”) as part of our “church” experience then I suspect there would be more appeal to leave the “sin” experience. Kinda like spitting out your gum so you can enjoy the steak you’ve just been served.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 4:58 am
Hey Simon. I must admit that I have been a reader on several of your most recent threads. My lack of commenting has only been from a pure lack of time available on the net. I think you’re posing some very good questions, and getting some good responses. I spent much time contemplating your “freedom” post last week, but by the time I would have had time to comment, it was history.
Anyway, to the question at hand… It is a great question, and I believe that it’s the Church’s grappling with this question that has caused much of it to become largely ineffective. To me, the question is backwards. To me, the question should be “What would God’s/Jesus perfect church look like?” When Jeanna and I first married, and were looking for a place to go to church, we visited all types of churches that were grappling with the question of how they could best serve me, the consumer. That’s not what church should be about… consumerism. It should be most grappling with the question of how the church can best serve God.
I have worked with Joel Osteen and several pastors on his staff in the distant past. It was on city wide outreach type work, and I can assure you that while his church is not one that I would want to attend, he is definitely the real deal. But your proposal that God’s church would have people more concerned with ecology and the poor is spot on. But you can’t stop there. In the New Testament, right before Christ ascended, he promised that his followers would see “greater things” than what they had seen even with him. John Wimber, the founder of the Vineyard movement, would go into the formula churches and ask the question – “Where’s the Stuff?” The stuff is the presence of God, the miraculous healings, changed lives, and much more. Unfortunately, it seems that to really find the “stuff” anymore in a Western church, you will be hard pressed to find the fullness of what it could be. You’ll find mass marketed tv shows that make much pomp and circumstance about the miracles of God. I won’t judge their heart or motives. But, to see the stuff that I believe God would love to see in church, you have to go to Africa, South America, or the underground church in China or the middle East. In those areas, people aren’t so worried about which church is going to have the best children’s program or the coolest vibe. In China, they’re grappling with making it through the service without being discovered and killed. In Africa and South America, they have given their lives to see the presence of God. With very little pomp and circumstance, there have been documented healings from AIDS and even people being raised from the dead.
So, long answer to a good question. My perfect church would be one that chases after the presence of God at all costs. And my experience is that when people encounter the presence of God in a real and personal way, any discussion of rules and tolerance goes out the window. I have many friends of all races, political opinions, sexual orientations, and religions. I don’t judge them… I just want them to experience the side of Jesus that I have. Once they’ve experienced that, all of those areas are up to Him to deal with.
Sorry if I got too “churchy” on you, but your question was about church :-)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 8:48 am
I WAS speaking of course of what my opinion of why people stay at home and “watch” church…not a reflection of me of course. I work on Sun and my sister takes my daughter to church. My apologies to Deputy Dave….I was having a flashback of my crazy-gun tottin’ neighbor….he proudly spouts off about going to jail for Jesus in China for handing out bibles. Which I admire the guy for his courage…but the way he words that…. And lets not forget to acknowledge….your lovely quoting abilities….I get “lost” without them :) I’ll be your 100th subscriber….but you have to reciprocate. Like angry poetry? :)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 9:51 am
Hi Simon. Churches today often lack a true element of concern for people. We visited a church recently that was set up to definitely draw people in. There was an entire table of doughnuts of every kind, hot water for instant coffee (with or without caffeine) or tea (also many selctions) or hot chocolate, and regular coffee (also leaded or unleaded). Of course this also included sugars, creamers, napkins, etc. It was very nice and thoughtful. We also were greeted and had our hands shaken. But it was missing a quality of genuineness. It felt like they were trying too hard. I am sure it was all with good intent and done with love, but I did not feel the presence of God–a relaxing peacefulness.I guess what I look for in a church is a connection that is difficult to find. I don’t want a large group of people that is divided into specified cliques. I also don’t want a church where once you serve in one area you are labeled and then limited. If there are individual groups for administration reasons, I want to see that they interact as one large group and do not restrict themselves to their one little coterie. I don’t want denominational differences or political parties or other such issues to overpower our similarities. But most of all I want the preacher (pastor, speaker, minister) to preach from God’s Word as if he believes it and without apology. I want a sermon or message that speaks the truth without fear of offense. If I go to church, I plan to hear about God, right? So if I’m not hearing the truth or sensing the Holy Spirit, my time has been wasted. Of course no church will ever be the perfect church while we are here on earth. But until I someday reach heaven, I will continue to seek out churches, wherever I might be, that worship God above community or relationship so that a truer communion can be achieved.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 29, 2006 at 3:27 pm
I didn’t stop to think about how bad that statement I made sounded. “I haven’t gotten all I need to get out of sins yet.” Without going too much into my life story.. I work in the adult entertainment industry.. I talk dirty to people on the phone.There was a time when I would have said “No way would I have ever done that!” and I probably would have thought badly of someone who did… but after a divorce and a few years of trying to work 3 jobs my daughter began to suffer. She was doing poorly in school, running the streets while I was working and getting into trouble. Big trouble.. Shoplifting, drinking and drugs. I didn’t have any family to help and her father is a joke so I began to look for ways that I could give her more of my time. To make a long story short.. I found phonesex. I work from home.. the pay is great and I’m home everyday and every night and my daughter is thriving. By thriving I mean she’s straigtenend out (for the most part – she’s still a 17 year old but we’ll live thru it.).She’s off drugs, doesn’t drink, gets straight A’s, has won scholarships. As a matter of fact she won a national award last year for art and writing and got to go to Carnegie Hall to receive it. It’s an award that people like Truman Capote, Sylvia Plath, Andy Warhol and Richard Avedon all won when they were young. She’s going to college and I have every reason to believe that she will turn out to be a good person who doesn’t have to make the decisions that I have had to make.Now if I were to show up at church someone’s bound to ask me what I do for a living. I could lie.. but I’m thinking that’s not a good idea in church, or I could tell the truth and deal with the whispers and the looks. I choose to pray in my bathroom, or my bed, or on my porch, or in my car .. I have a sneaking suspicion that God is pretty much everywhere and I also believe that he knows where my heart is.There are a few things in life that you only get one chance at. I don’t believe that getting into Heaven is a one shot deal but raising a child is… and you only have a limited amount of time to do that and get it right. I could have taken the “high road” and worked my fingers to the bone and prayed and hoped that God would take my daughter down the right path… but I choose to take her there myself and I know that God was there too and I know he’s not always happy with my choices, but I believe that he’s an understanding and forgiving God and I do try to keep that in mind and I don’t go a day without reminding myself of that.Everything isn’t so black and white.. Right and wrong… Good and Bad. I hope not anyway. But if I have to go to hell to keep my daughter from going there. I will.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 6:08 am
Wookit raises an interesting point though. She would feel akward saying she works a phone sex line if someone at a Church asked her what she did. And that right there is one reason ‘the church’ is in decline. It excludes too many people by default. Wookit’s choices are honorable ones, her honesty is also a quality that God himself would look kindly upon too. However, in a church such honesty would probably find her the focus of a lot of judgement and exclusion, and even if it didn’t she is living walking breathing proof that she FEELS that it would.
I wrote about this is a previous post, the lack of honesty from ‘the church’ is something that is killing it. It’s become a club of restrictions, and the irony is that a Christian would tell you that Jesus came to ‘set us free.’
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 4:59 am
Wookit, the body of Christ has failed you. I’m sorry. Where were the Christian families to help in your time of need? Although I realize a monetary solution rarely is more than temporary, where were those who had children of their own who could have drawn your daughter close and protected her in your time of need? I’m sorry.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 5:01 am
I really have no idea. Maybe they were at church.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 5:03 pm
Yeah Wookit I’m with you there. The God I believe in is fair and just. I doubt he sees anything as black and white. God looks at your heart and if he doesn’t then we’ll have to earn our way into heaven, and to be quite honest I for one would not be excited about sharing eternity with people who spent their lives earning a place in heaven.
As for churches asking people to leave and never come back, David, is that something you can point me to in the Bible. I’m no scholar, but I thought mercy and care was the name of the game.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 12:12 pm
There is often a lack of honesty. My friend is now a single mom because her husband decided he had been deceived into the church and no longer wanted to be a part of it. He told her she wouldn’t be happy with him that way since she thinks church is important, and just left. Maybe he’s using an excuse, but it is possible he had been misled. I don’t think Christians should be promising lives of rainbows and flowers to those they hope to win. I have seen this form of persuasion so can understand how someone could feel cheated, especially when the person making the promises doesn’t stick around to offer any support. I really feel for my friend, though; she has two daughters under the age of seven, and she is the one who must deal with the pain, anger, and tears. I’m teaching my son that life is not fair, but I am so glad he did not have to learn it like these two girls.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 1:12 pm
I would venture to say that Wookit would feel the same awkwardness in a number of settings (the toy section of your local department store for instance), not JUST the church (Wookit, please confirm for us if you will). Her profession would be seen as less than ideal in a mosque, a buddhist temple, the Daycare on the corner, and the Ladies’ Auxillarie of Lord Dunham’s Smoking Club as well, I can imagine.But the assumption being made here is that Wookit would have been rejected at church. Maybe so, maybe not; might depend on what church. But the Church did not fail her as momichu suggests. The Church never got the chance to fail her…or help her.We have people with questionable habits, issues, and vocations here at our church all the time. Yes, they are hesitant to share those things in a fundamental church for fear of rejection or just because of their own shame issues. Sometimes the fear is overwhelming. But when they do, and we suggest that type of disclosure within relationships that have been identified as safe and trustworthy, then that which they feared the most (rejection) is rather met with grace, mercy, and help.In the 25 years I’ve been here only 3-4 have ever been asked to not come back, and those because they were sexually victimizing others here, or because their agenda was undermining the already established mission of the church.We currently have members who struggle with all the pestilences known to man (any group of 500 people anywhere is likely to). They are not asked to leave, but are offered help. Yes, we call sin just that, sin, but we offer help for the addiction, the behavior, the brokenness, the abuse, the unforgiveness and/or refer them to those who can help.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Actually, based on wookit’s description, I made the assumption that at one time she did attend church.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Hmmm… I don’t think it would be an appropriate conversation to have in a toy department or a daycare center.. Not because I’m ashamed of what I do but because it’s simply not something that I would discuss in front of a child. I doubt the Buddhist or the Muslims would be overly accepting of my employment but I’m not talking about their God, I’m talking about mine.Before I started doing what I do for a living, way back when I was working 18 hours a day I did go to my church for help. Help with daycare, help with food. Their daycare center was full but I was given a few boxes of cereal, some canned meat, the phone number to the welfare office, some advice to “find a job” and an offer of prayer… and was told to come on down to Sunday mass so that I could get closer to God. Yeah.. Sunday mass is the easiest thing to do if you don’t mind losing your job because you’re on mandatory weekend overtime.I don’t think the church was responsible for my problems, nor do I think they were responsible for solving them and I don’t believe that the church or it’s members are in any position to judge me or tell me how God might judge me so I refuse to stand there and be the object of gossipy whispers and stares. I have better things to do with my time.I find that a lot of people get something confused… A preacher/priest/reverend/clergymen is suppose to teach, to help us understand the bible and to deliver Gods message, not to deliver or determine his judgement. I guess that’s what turns me off the most about the church. It’s easy to tell me what I’m doing wrong and that’s fine, I can handle it, but don’t try and tell me how I will pay for it, God will handle that himself and I trust that he will do that fairly.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 4:11 am
Yes, excommunication is both scriptural and historical. But it is only to be done after great patience, appeal, and love. And then only in a spirit of mercy.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 4:26 am
This “excommunication” is a word In speech ecclesiastical oft heard, And means the damning, with bell, book and candle, Some sinner whose opinions are a scandal — A rite permitting Satan to enslave him Forever, and forbidding Christ to save him. –Gat HuckleMan damning man.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 30, 2006 at 7:43 pm
Sometimes fiction is truer than truth. Reading some of these parodies from larknews.com makes me think someone’s been to one of the churches I used to attend and writing down what I’ve been thinking. Some of these were side-splittingly funny for me, but at the same time, they can be a slap in the face with the truth behind them. It’s no wonder that Christians are called “earthen vessels” with treasure in them. Sometimes the earthen-ness shows a bit more than the treasure.Edgy Church Breaks Old Rules, Insists on New OnesPastor Apologizes for Unintentional AcrosticTeens Ditch Inauthentic FriendSitar Player Booted from Church Orchestra Error MessageAssemblies of God Commits Entire 2004 Evangelism Budget to Converting MadonnaWal-Mart Rejects ‘Racy’ Worship CD
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 8:13 am
No it’s not. It’s a quote. But doesn’t Matthew 18 basically say that God doesn’t want to lose even one lamb, even if they have gone astray? That the right thing to do is to continue to talk to them and guide them and pray for them and to ask others and the church to do the same in hopes that one day they will come around? Peter even asked Jesus how many times he had to forgive a person of their sins against him, and Jesus said as many times as it takes. That’s what I always got out of it anyway. I’m reading it from an optimistic point of view though. I know some read it from another angle.I also know that in the catholic church (I’m Catholic) excommunication does still take place under certain grounds. I’m not sure but I believe that there are nine grounds for excommunication – and it’s never done with the idea that it will be permanent. If the person repents then they are welcomed back. Also an excommunicated person is always welcome to attend services they just can’t partake of certain rituals such as communion and cofession.I always thought that the catholic church was the most strict but if there are churches that simply fling their members out the door then I guess I don’t have it so bad.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 8:21 am
A church and an alley are hardly the same thing. If a drug dealer comes knocking on the door of your church wanting to take a peek at what the church has to offer him in the way of salvation but is undecided as to whether he is ready to change his ways, do you tell him to come back when he’s changed because you don’t want to expose your parish or your son to his evil ways or do you welcome him in? Do keep an eye on your wallet, but don’t expect him to change in the alley if the church locks their doors to him.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 10:03 am
We’ve had some very notorious drug dealers in worship with us. They were never asked to leave.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 10:14 am
momichu said- “The Bible does talk of correcting. I believe dgausepohl is referring to 1 Corinthians 5. But I would suggest that if the expelled brother eventually repents (Luke 17) then we would be required to accept him back into the church even if the church had asked them “to not come back.” And momichu is correct, though none have ever been told not to come back. There was a man in our congregation intentionally preying on women in the church and exploiting them sexually. He was asked to discontinue the behavior or not come. He chose to not come. Eventually he changed his mind and agenda (the definition of “repent”). He chose to go to another church, maybe out of embarrassment that some of those women are still here, but regardless, he is still my friend to this day.I do have the capacity to “agree to disagree”, and to forgive. My wife’s exhusband is a good friend of mine now.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 10:47 am
You said that members of your church have been asked to leave and not come back. And I understand that someone preying on someone else in a sexual way is horrible.. and should be dealt with, find them help, involve the law if it’s warranted. If their undermining the mission of your church remove them from what ever position they hold that makes it possible for them to undermine your church maybe. But to tell them to leave their church and not come back? Does that accomplish Gods mission? Since the question that Simon asked was about what makes some of us not want to go to church.. and I said because I feel judged there, when you said that I might feel the same way in the toy store, mosque, temple etc I can’t see the how that’s realevent, unless you’re suggesting that these places are comparable to the christian church.This opened a can of worms about what is considered judgement and I was only talking about my experiences and perceptions. No I would not feel comfortable in a dark alley with a someone who may intend to harm me. On Saturday night out on the streets I would avoid a thug or gang banger… but I would be happy to pray beside them on Sunday morning. But again.. we’re not talking about what takes place in darkenend alleys we’re taking about what takes place in the christian church which holds itself up way above the alley and the toy department of Walmart. As it should.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 6:55 am
That would NOT be the scriptural version.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 7:40 am
There seems to be some misconceptions on this word “judging”. The scriptures admonish us not to judge one another. They also encourage us to “keep your eye on those who cause dissentions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.”, and also “do not partiscipate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them”. Would you call those activities judging?If a mother and child find themselves in a situation where others do not “feel safe” to the mother, and she removes herself and her child because of this feeling, is she judging those others, and therefore in disobedience to the scriptures. Heavens no! She is a responsible and protective mother.If a man finds himself in a dark alley with thugs who are out to rob him, or worse, is it judgemental to ascertain that there is malice in those men’s hearts, and quickly remove himself, or protect himself? No.There is a difference between judging someone, and exercising good judgement. I have discouraged my son from hanging out with those who abuse drugs, practice gang warfare, and pursue their sexual addictions. Am I judging drug addicts, gang-bangers, and sex addicts by telling him this? You decide.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 8:31 am
I was reading my Bible this morning and the song “I heard It Through the Grapevine” came to mind. Not the entire idea of the song was relevant, but just that particular phrase. The verse I was reading was John 21:23–“Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, ‘If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?'”The Bible does talk of correcting. I believe dgausepohl is referring to 1 Corinthians 5. But I would suggest that if the expelled brother eventually repents (Luke 17) then we would be required to accept him back into the church even if the church had asked them “to not come back.”
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 10:02 am
“but if there are churches that simply fling their members out the door then I guess I don’t have it so bad.”Who said anything about doing that?
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 12:38 pm
As I said, christians have been judgemental; we’re people. But christians are not always judgemental. And not all christians are judgemental. But we’re still people.If you go into a church you do not run into a bunch of people who have everything figured out. Most don’t. We’re addicts, alcoholics, abusers, abused, victims, beaten, emotionally abused, sexually addicted, relationally addicted, bi-polar, depressed, scared, afraid, poor self-image, self-haters, etc. People make up the church. True, we may be turning to Christ to deal with those issues, and we’ll all be at differing stages of healing regarding those things. As you have said, you cannot have expectations that everyone you meet at church will treat you as Jesus would. Naturally you run into our issues as much as our redemption.My point is that you would run into others issues, and maybe be judged by them anywhere you go, church or otherwise. The people are not the ones that bring healing, Jesus is.If you want a church where everyone there has dealt with all of their issues 100%, with no risk of being judged or misunderstood, then expect to be completely disappointed every time you come. If you’d like to wait until everyone there gets their s— 100% together before you come, give us until the 2nd Coming before you check us out again.If I’m screwing with your idealism of what the church SHOULD be, get over it. But if you want to come figure out how God can help all of us with our crap, and work from whereever we are today toward the healing He has for us, join us anytime.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 2:11 pm
Simon asked a simple question. “Why don’t you do to church?”I never said that I don’t go to church because the people there may have issues. I said I don’t go there because I don’t feel like I can be honest about what I do and expect to be accepted and that I’m not ready or willing to give up my job at this perticular time and I don’t think the church would be too happy about that either. There are other reasons as well, but I picked the one that’s the most personal.You haven’t screwed with my idealism of what church should be. I don’t think church or it’s members can ever be perfect and nowhere did I say that I expect it to be. But as a church leader, if your best advice to me, or anyone else who express their reasons for not attending church services because their uncomfortable with the atmosphere or any other aspect of the church, is to say “get over it” rather than opening a dialog that might actually help the situation and could even boost attendance, then I am at a loss as to where to go from here.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 31, 2006 at 3:28 pm
I think if you are passionate about anything you like to gather with people of similar passion. I think that we have given “The Church” whatever that is too much power as well as responsiblity over our lives. Christianity in the end is about a personal relationship with God/Jesus and a personal understanding of the purpose for your own life. What church you go to will not get you where you want or need to be. A community of those people who believe as you do will. That is what I attend on a weekly basis. Those communities have changed many times in my life based on my level of passion and understanding.
There was a time in my life when I needed what Joel Osteen and Lakewood had to offer. I went to church with 20,000 people in a weekend and had many amazing experiences. I left before they went so global and moved into the Compaq Center. I hear lots of critisim of his ministry but 30,000 people attend each week and millions watch him on TV. My mom is a missionary in Africa because of the work that is father started and his mother continued.
Not to sound to preachy but the church isn’t the problem. I am saying this from person experience. It has some problems but it isn’t THE problem. The problem is the same as the children of God in the desert. They belived in “I AM” but they did not believe Him. If you believe in Him and then BELIEVE Him and what his word says in the end that is all you need. Seek first the Kingdom and leave the details to God the father, son and spirit.
On a side note I realize that David will probably read this and as I proof read this I am picture his smile because he actually told me something similar not to long ago.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 1, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Wookit, my “just get over it” IS my way of starting that “dialog”. If my Texan swagger has put you off, I apologize. In fact, I thought we were in the MIDDLE of that “dialog”. I apologize for not knowing we hadn’t started yet. If you came to our church I’d shield you a bit and help you fit in and feel comfortable while you “take a peek at what the church has to offer”.If you’d like dialog to continue, I’ll let you chose the forum you’re most comfortable with – 1) on the “King’s” blog, 2) via email – davidg@houstonvineyard.org , or 3) you may call me at 713-869-9070 ext 109.Face-to-face is good too, if you’re ever stateside. And if I visit the motherland I’ll let you know ahead of time.If you don’t want to continue I’ll understand (and not judge). Blessings on you and your daughter.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 2:05 am
Okay, I went away for the weekend and missed all the excitement on my own darn Xanga! :-) Maybe this thread is dead and burred, but hopefully not.
The scriptures admonish us not to judge one another. They also encourage us to “keep your eye on those who cause dissentions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.”, and also “do not partiscipate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them”. Said David.That is true enough. The scriptures do say that. But Wookit was also right when she said ”
But doesn’t Matthew 18 basically say that God doesn’t want to lose even one lamb, even if they have gone astray?”I have a big problem with excommunication in that it is so often used in a totally abusive and destructive way. Used to simply sweep aside the dissentions and hindrances of questioning minds, of people who might actually be pointing out some flaws in the church maybe? Now I’m not saying David’s church did this, but you can see how easy it would be for any church leadership to abuse the verses David quoted. They might also say, like David, that the doors were open should the excommunicated person wish to repent and return. But how is that person supposed to prove their repentance? And what if they return and sin again in the same way. Should the church invoke their right to cast out the sinner or should they use up another one of the sinners 490 lives?
I appreciate that David won’t want to discuss the details of the incident he was involved with, but he speaks of this man his church excommunicated in ways that would make anyone feel very badly toward that man. He said the man was “preying on women in the church” and “exploiting them sexually” them. he also described this as “sexually victimizing.”
This language is very VERY serious indeed. “Preying on women” sounds sinister enough, but “exploiting” and “victimizing” them sounds criminal, and criminal in the worst way too. So I must ask David if the police were involved, if not then why not?
Was this a case of a single guy came to the church and met women (just as he met guys too), befriended them then engaged in sex with them. If so then they would, in the churches eyes, both be sinners would they not. I mean presumably he didn’t rape them or else he would be in jail, though we can assume he isn’t as he now attends another church according to David. So I can only imagine that the COUPLE were simply not throwing the brakes on when perhaps, in religious terms, they should have done. While I appreciate this isn’t very acceptable in church maybe, it happens in bars and clubs ALL THE TIME and is not considered to be anything even close to “victimizing” or “exploiting.”
David also claims that he is friends with the guy in question even now. Yet he doesn’t know why the guy chose to attend another church so I guess that would be ‘friends’ in the loosest of terms to then?
I would always urge Pastors to use moderated language when describing religious sexual sin in terms that wider society has another understanding of. We don’t know the guy in question of course, but if that language was used locally the damage to his reputation could have been far reaching and utterly devastating. Heck, the language David uses places him in the same category as our old friend Spanky the sex offender whether he means to or not.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 7:27 am
He was married, and the women were married, and knew his wife. Nothing that doesn’t happen all the time for sure, but nothing to go to jail for. However, last I check, even non-christians viewed such behavior as scandalous.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 8:43 am
This link might help with “what the heck is agape?” ;-)
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 8:51 am
I also thought that the guy in question was forcing himself on someone. Were the women also asked to leave the church? Last time I checked, it takes two to tango.This got me to wonderin’.. If I were to attend your church and admitted that I am a phonesex operator, for the sake of not lieing.. Keep in mind that I don’t hand out business cards with my toll free number on it. I don’t even have a link to my phonesex website on my xanga and surely don’t encourage my friends to call me, so chances are pretty good that I wouldn’t solicit business in church.. But.. say I did admit it and certain men in your congregation decided to call a phonesex line.. because obviously no one is perfect and curiosity can be the devil. Then their wives came to you and said that I had led the lambs astray, do you then ask me to leave? Did I put the temptation there? Would I be asked to leave, or would they for being weak? You never mentioned anything happening to the poor “victimized” women in your scenario. How is it determined who seduced who?
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 8:27 am
Exploited and victimizing though David? See that’s where I would have the objection. Your language didn’t lead me to assume you were just talking about someone who was having extra-marital affairs. The spin you put on it made it sound WAY worse, and I’m quite sure I wouldn’t be the only one to think that.
Now addressing what Beth says the first thing I find myself wondering is “what the heck is agape?” Is that Christian-speak? rather like being “washed in the blood of the lamb” like such a thing sounds like anything anyone would want!
Sadly your story is one which I’ve heard more times than I care to remember. For some reason that I cannot understand, God (should he actually be paying attention anymore) has spent YEARS showing me the very worst of religion. The ugliest darkest side of our very nice lovely hands-in-the-air “Praise the Lord” churches.
At the same time he has put some of the best most ‘down-to-earth’ Christians slap bang in my path. Interestingly God just won’t get out of my fuckin’ way! Which is as curious as it is annoying. But I’m not someone who fits into a Sunday service or who can sit comfortably and dutifully silent on a pew while someone I have no relationship preaches at me. I say shit, fuck, and bollocks to it! I shag, I drink, and sometimes I get wasted. Though my blurry days of rebellion are pretty much behind me I am, nonetheless, not a blue suit wearing nice guy who could join the coral society or lead wobbly handed prayer sessions. I have more questions than answers and despite my best efforts I can fuck it up just as spectacularly as anyone else.
My belief in God isn’t based upon the religious small print that so many Christian folk seem hell bent on tripping me up with. The God I believe in doesn’t get bent out of shape when I ask “what the fuck?” He doesn’t always answer me, but at least I know he’s looking at my question rather than the ‘F word’ in the question.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 7:42 am
Wow – what an interesting thread!
About two years ago, I was a part of a church where sin ran amok! The preacher himself was involved in some pretty inappropriate behavior. The Youth Leader to whom I was Assisstant and I took the proper steps – confrontation of the preacher, elevation to the deacons – and were asked to leave the church because we were coming against a “man of God.” We were so upset over the whole ordeal – we’d called a sin a sin and tried to follow Biblical protocol in dealing with it, and we were excommunicated from this church! Where was God in that!? I can see now where He was. Because of all that went down, I had to move back in with family (2-3 hours away from where that church was), which, in turn, led me to the church I’m attending now. I now have a wonderful job, I help with the youth group, and I help lead the praise and worship band at church. The Youth Leader has moved with his wife to a town about an hour from the first church I mentioned and they are thriving financially and as a couple – both of which they really needed. The church that asked us to leave has dwindled until finally, the preacher has left. Even some of the deacons who issued the excommunication left not long after it all went down! Now, if He chooses, God can restore that church family and bring Himself glory! I say all of this to say that no one on Earth is perfect – least of all churches. If churches were for perfect people, no one would be allowed in, HOWEVER – it’s a shame to see the blindness in so many Christians today. So many don’t understand the difference between intolerance and agape – Christ love. We don’t love sin and we don’t accept a person’s sin as “Oh well, keep sinning!” We love the SINNER! We say, “Hey, this is tough and I’ll pray for you, and I’m here if you need me.” And when we say that, we HAVE to mean it! I struggle with sin constantly, so I have a hard time judging anyone else for having the same slip-ups as me. If I lash out at anyone WITH that judgement, maybe it’s because I see the same imperfections in my own life? It’s always easier to be mad at someone else than it is to be mad at ourselves. That still doesn’t make it right. Wookit (or any one else, for that matter) – honestly – if I can do anything for you, let me know.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 3, 2006 at 8:54 am
Thank you, momichu!
Wrote the following comment on Apr 4, 2006 at 9:07 am
I suppose David hasn’t seen the progression of this thread. Shame.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 4, 2006 at 5:22 pm
I’ve come to the conclusion that even people who truly believe that they have a complete understanding about what’s right, what’s wrong, good, bad, and who think they know what God wants, are really no closer to having it figured out than I am when I’m praying in my car and avoiding church.I don’t think that church makes us closer to God, I think it’s our belief and faith and in whatever way we chose to express it, or to not express it. God loves us, Jesus died for us, I don’t think we were meant to be perfect and I won’t believe that God made us as imperfect as we are with the idea of sitting up in Heaven waiting for us to fuck up so that he can punish us. When I try and think of it that way, I imagine him up there on his throne playing an elaborate video game where the human race is equivalent to a bunch of frogs trying to cross a confusing highway. Make the wrong move and you get crushed.I think most religions revolve around the basic idea that we should love… or at least be kind to one another and those are principles that I think anyone would have a hard time finding fault with.If some people find comfort in going to church then I’m happy for them, but I think that those of us who find comfort with a more personal, nonpublic relationship with God shouldn’t have to try and defend that, even to ourselves.Peace.
Wrote the following comment on Apr 5, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Wookit, I think that maybe you have hit on what is missing in the churches. If I enter a church for the first time and do not witness loving interaction among the members, why would I trust the attention I might receive? Jesus said “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” (John 13:34-35). Christians are commanded to love one another so that others will know they are disciples. What good does it do to reach out to those outside the church if inside the church there is intolerance among the brethren?
Wrote the following comment on Apr 5, 2006 at 6:49 pm
I’ll drink to that Momichu!
Wrote the following comment on Apr 6, 2006 at 1:55 pm
momichu said it well. That’s what we should be trying to figure out – how to love well. The commandments in the bible are admonitions to that end, i.e., this is what loving well would look like, and this is what it does not look like.Even if someone’s behavior is antithetical to the commandments of the bible, others should lovingly support them toward better ends with grace and patience. If their behavior is hurtful to others it should be done “outside of the fellowship of the church” (according to Saint Paul, whom I do not wish to argue with, though you may if you like). Otherwise it should be done “within the fellowship of the church”.Simon said: “The God I believe in doesn’t get bent out of shape when I ask “what the fuck?” He doesn’t always answer me, but at least I know he’s looking at my question rather than the ‘F word’ in the question.” In my opinion Simon He does answer you, and He says “Good to hear from you again Simon; and don’t hold back, tell me what you really think.” Seriously. Unfortunately some within the church walls have mistaken conservatism for christianity, and would blush or scoff at those with more colorful vocabulary. However, they do not represent Christ in their scoffing, but only their conservatism.Please don’t count me with that lot. I’m old enough to know those conservatisms are not the essential issues of faith.