All this talk on various churchy folks Xanga’s about sex has been very interesting to watch unfold. Dgausepohl got the ball rolling with the statement “We have no legitimate right to sex outside of marriage.”
He followed this up with an invitation to members of his church who were sexually or emotionally involved with someone who wasn’t their spouse to call him for help. this was also extended to single people who were having sex and wanted to stop having sex.
His actions were clearly a well meaning gesture. The married Houston based pastor seems to want to ‘get down and dirty’, so to speak, with the subject of sex among Christians. Though perhaps unsurprisingly, his invitation hasn’t resulted in his diary being filled.
“Who am I kidding…myself? Silly me; expecting people having a sexual problem to admit it, and to email or call me to talk about it.” He writes.
But really, what did he expect? The Church has struggled with this subject since, well probably since forever surely? We are sexual beings programmed, you might say by God himself, to desire sexual gratification. But when the Bible and the Christian church seems to be so quick to condemn much about the tricky subject of sex, it surely can’t come as a surprise to anyone that people aren’t lining up to talk openly about it.
“Give ’em fire and brimstone for 40 minutes, threaten them with damnation, and then tell them your office door is open any time if they’d like to learn how to spare their souls.” Suggests one comment on the pastors blog. Maybe that approach would work on a Sunday morning in Texas. A bit of damnation before lunch never hurt anyone right? But then again maybe sex in church on a Sunday morning might be a little too much for some?
It’s a fine line. How does a pastor address this with the urgency and passion that Dgausepohl clearly has, but do so in a way that doesn’t actually close more doors than it opens?
“Its one thing to offer counseling and healing to those who have been hurt and broken by sexual relationships. Its another to be calling people on the carpet for unbibilical behavior they don’t wish to change. Everyone wants the first one, but no one wants the second. But can we have one without a clear position on the other?” Asks someone in a comment of Dgausepohl’s Xanga.
And there is the problem. It’s all very well asking the congregation to come and confess their deepest secrets, but what is expected from such meetings? One has to assume the pastor is going to want to see some change, and if he doesn’t… what then?
It could become ugly, worse still, it could become public, and although we might appear to live in a very open age regarding sex, with the media full of stories about ‘who does what with whom and how,’ those stories aren’t about us, are they.
Indeed Dgausepohl himself writes “The New Testament is clear that our relationships with our brothers and sisters in Christ are not private, but community matters, and that we are accountable to the community of faith for [our] own behavior toward one another.”
Now I’m not judging the pastor when I say this, but that statement immediately makes me extremely cautious. The privacy issue might not be one that effects just me, there could be someone else in the church involved too, and maybe they’re going to be really upset with me if I ‘out’ their sin to the pastor while I confess mine. Furthermore, while pastor might grant me some limited form of confidentiality, what does he do about the knowledge that this other member of the church, who might not have taken up his invitation, is engaged in ‘sexual sin.’
Can – worms – everywhere!
The subject of sex with someone other than your spouse is one that most would probably agree on in that it isn’t generally a good idea. But sex with before marriage, now there’s a tricky one. If you took a census of everyone who goes to church I think I might bet that the age group with the least attendance would be the late teenagers to early thirties. Could it be considered merely coincidental that this age range is the same age range that’s having sex before marriage?
I don’t know if anyone has ever done a seriously large scale study into church attendance demographics, but from my own experience I’ve seen lots of Christian friends leave their churches around the time they leave home and go to University. They then remain absent until such time as they have had enough ‘fun’, then they settle down and possibly return to the church. Could this be because church is an easier place to be in when you are either a child, or married?
Of course many single people go to church. But of them I wonder how many really do remain a virgin in every respect until they are married? And of the ones who don’t, how many of those are willing to talk about it?
Pastor Dgausepohl isn’t getting the response he had hoped for from his invitation. He is, of course, to be commended for seeking honesty among his fellow Christians, but there seems little point in asking questions to which one already knows the answer. So while his door my may be wide open for conversation, behind closed doors people will continue to come together in entirely different ways.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 2:03 am
Staying in bed shouting, Oh God! Does not constitute going to church.. Ha! That’s funny.I’m still a virgin. :)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 9:20 am
I think the serious demographers would actually reinforce your gut feelings about the attendance trends and, while I hadn’t thought of that direct corollation before, you could very well be right. Sex is definitely one of the hottest hot-buttons (no pun intended) in society and should at least be handled with careful language and concern for all individuals involved. This should never be used as an excuse to shrink back from expressing our convictions…but it should act as a governor on how we express them and the language we use in the dialogue. That also brings up a good thought: dialogue. That’s a hard thing to do on the internet, because for dialogue to remain healthy, both parties must always be checking to make sure they are accurately understanding the other person…this is tenuous at best on the internet. Facial expressions, tones of voice, those are both almost impossible to decipher in writing. Misunderstanding is exponentially more plausible in cyberspace and such misunderstanding can be downright damning in the discussion of sexuality and sexual issues.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 11:57 am
I guess I should answer for myself, since I’m the pastor the “King” is quoting. “the pastor is going to want to see some change, and if he doesn’t… what then? It could become ugly, worse still, it could become public…”The “King” is certainly right in being concerned that someone’s sexual habits be brought to the public by anyone in authority (whether pastor or therapist). However this quote is completely out of context. Read the blogs for yourself. What I am saying is that Christian singles are accountable to the Christian community for whether their behavior is acceptable to that community. We are not islands; and our choices and behaviors do have consequences that go beyond ourselves (and beyond our sexual partner[s]). Pastors are not the ones to enforce particular behaviors, but the community of faith is.Moreover, if someone were sexually exploiting singles in this community, I wouldn’t have to make anything public…the community would handle that just fine themselves, with no help from any church authority. And that’s as it should be.My adminishings, encouragements and warnings are that:THE COMMUNITY OF FAITH IS WATCHING – THEY WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE (if you count yourself among their numbers). IF YOU PROFESS FAITH IN CHRIST AND FELLOWSHIP WITH HIS CHURCH, THEN LET THE CHURCH SPEAK TO YOU OF WHAT FAITH LIVED OUT AMONG THEM LOOKS LIKE ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.RISE UP O CHURCH OF GOD!
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 12:29 pm
Further clarification:You quoted me as saying – “WE HAVE NO LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE”All of these blogs are directed at Christians who, professing faith in Christ (although any may read and comment), it is believed they WANT to know what the scriptures say about these issues of relationship. That said, my further clarification was:”To clarify – according to God and his son Jesus, as written in the scriptures, I HAVE NO LEGITIMATE RIGHT TO SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE, and to do so anyway is self-destuctive, and hurts others and God. Always the challenge must be – INTEGRATE ALL I DISCOVER TO BE TRUE INTO EVERY FACET OF MY LIFE.”One can DO whatever one may choose, thanks to our God-given freedom of volition, but if one chooses to pursue life with Christ and His Church, then behavior toward others becomes an important aspect of discipleship, and the scriptures are where we turn for direction. Therefore, sex outside of marriage is contrary to the scriptural admonition, and this fact (along with many others) is important to anyone who has surrendered their life to God and the values of His Kingdom. The teachings of scripture are the underpinnings of Christian culture as a whole.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 12:55 pm
Although I agree dgausepohl has a right to clarify and defend his writings, I think it is unfair to make the statement that All of these blogs are directed at Christians as if Simon had not made this clear.
I believe this was covered by Simon since he refers to the talk as being on various churchy folks Xanga’s and classifies that the blog in question is speaking to members of the church.
He also appears to be very reasonable and respectful by saying that the actions at the blog he is referring to are clearly a well meaning gesture. He says that the author should be commended for seeking honesty among his fellow Christians. He even says that there is an urgency and passion that he perceives as being portrayed. A link to the blog in question is also provided so people can investigate for themselves.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 5:21 am
I like your xanga! I was just browsing through blog rings and decided to say hello. So, hello!! Have a good day :)
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 1:38 pm
“Pastors are not the ones to enforce particular behaviors, but the community of faith is.”This brings to mind images of the people from my church that I grew up in marching up to my door with torches, carrying a chastity belt. Scary.”THE COMMUNITY OF FAITH IS WATCHING – THEY WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE” I’m thinkin’ God is the only one who can hold me accountable.I sure am glad I’m a virgin.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Momichu:You said, “The Christian faith itself is based upon the Bible which is written word.”This is true…and as we all know there are sects upon sects of people who claim to have “THE” way to interpret those sayings…each to the exclusivity of the other. Yes, there are clues to interpretation and somethings are easier than others…but the point remains that the misinterpretation of those words become the foundation for wars, factions and all sorts of nastiness.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 5:52 pm
Your highness, I chortled shamelessly at the photos, though I suspect the third one may be photoshop-assisted. Since you enjoy humour, might I recommend a fellow citizen of the UK, Adrian Plass. His book “You Say Tomato” is a hilarious comparison of “Christian culture” in the UK vs. the US, he does this, oddly enough, using the written word. He also tells jokes live and in person. An American and a British man meet in a pub and continue correspondence by mail after the American goes home. I wouldn’t recommend reading this book or “The Horizontal Epistles of Andromeda Veal” while eating or drinking, though, unless snarfing food and drink into the sinuses is enjoyable to you. https://adrianplass.com/shop/books/tomato.htmI also offer this cartoon. The comment links are also a gas. https://www.whichcircle.com/episodes/04.html As jeovrtn states nicely, we don’t need to focus on ourselves, “community,” and “relationship.” Focusing on being more like Jesus and loving others like He did will naturally cause us to do things that others might call “community” or “relationship.” “If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilites, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.” -Fox Mulder
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Simon – You have a job waiting for you somewhere in the editing room of a 24-hour news network.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 1:32 pm
The statement that shaeman makes perplexes me:That also brings up a good thought: dialogue. That’s a hard thing to do on the internet, because for dialogue to remain healthy, both parties must always be checking to make sure they are accurately understanding the other person… this is tenuous at best on the internet. Facial expressions, tones of voice, those are both almost impossible to decipher in writing.The Christian faith itself is based upon the Bible which is written word. I consider the written word to be more reliable and trustworthy than the verbal word. Unless each conversation is recorded with video so that expressions and intonations are preserved, the verbal word can be misconstrued far more easily than that which is written. If one fears that their written words will not accurately portray what it is they plan to say, they can rewrite them or have a faithful friend read them prior to allowing them to be read. My tongue is far more likely to get me into trouble than my writing is. James 3 cautions us that the tongue has the ability to be a restless evil, full of deadly poison and that as such it corrupts the whole person.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 9:42 pm
I find it curious that the Church (and myself personally) has been critisized for talking about sexuality and also for not talking about sexuality.If I talk about what the bible lays out as acceptable sexual behavior for the Christian I am critisized for being judgemental by those who wish to continue in their unbiblical expressions of sexuality. I AM NOT JUDGING YOU! (It might be pointed out here that anyone who knows me personally has NEVER called me judgemental. On the contrary, I am usually seen as much too liberal.)Likewise, if I do not comment on sexuality I am told the Church as done a poor job of helping those struggling with their sexuality.Christians are almost always uncomfortable with talk on sexuality, though statistically they’re doing it more than all others, within the confines of their marriage. They should be speaking as the experts, not Bill Maher.And for you Christians out there, conservatism does not equal Christianity, but to hear some Christians speak (or comment on blogs) you would think it does. Get over it, and quit living out of your fears.Jesus instructed us on sexuality, but no one wishes to hear what he said. Paul taught us on proper sexual behavior within the community of faith, but no one wants to hear from him. Their teachings on sexuality were and are for our good, and to show us a healthier way.As a pastor I will always speak regarding sexuality because I will always be asked to do so by people who want to know what the bible teaches on the subject. There will always be (and currently are) people who took their liberties sexually either before they were Christians or while they were Christians, and are now asking for help for the devastation that behavior brought upon them and/or their families, and I will always answer them. I’m the one who looks into their tear-stained, pain-filled faces as they recall the years of indulgence, both men and women. Because of them, I will never regret that I have done so.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 3:41 pm
i agree with wookit. the thing i feel like the (human) church fails at is when we get all focused on ‘us’, ‘our behavior’. etc. Community issues are important but not more than the true gospel’s message of Jesus Christ being the prize. it is all about HIM. His love IS UNCONDITIONAL. He hung on a tree for even the sinners. (i purposly am not quoting scripture, because too many people use it as a sword)
Jesus, himself, even told Peter to put his sword away, when the gaurds were taking him to His death. Jesus showed his UNconditional love for even the sexually active, even the gaurds may have been sexually active, in those days. (even if one wants to challenge and say the word is used as a sword, jesus, did not use it (literally) as a tool of condemnation.)
The sexually immoral woman caught in the act of adultry, was going to be stoned, was saved by Christ. She wasn’t even trying to “change her behavior.” She had just met Jesus, as she was trying to escape the persecution. How beautiful of a picture of a loving father. He didn’t condemn, he told her to go and sin no more.
Of course, God’s words are for us to stay away and sin no more.
However, jesus still paid the penalty. The church steps in front of the true message. it is Jesus who saves, not the church. We as a church, should bring the community to a place where everyone, including the sexual active, is striving after JESUS and HIs ways… HIs convictions….God judges.
all the efforts of using logic to bring on conviction goes completely against what God did.
Is is logical to hang on a tree? To die for ALL? The sexual immoral, child abusers? What about the Gay in that time? Don’t we know, that GOD knew every person before HIM didn’t deserve what His death did, yet, He did it anyways? He obviously used the logic of the world as a stumbling block, because HIS MERCY AND LOVE is far to unimaginable.
I WOULD JUST CHALLENGE CHRISTIANS TO LOVE, EVEN THOSE OUT OF OUR COMFORT ZONE, WITHOUT WORDS.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 10, 2006 at 4:14 pm
jeovrtn-You might not be purposely quoting Scriptures, but it is obvious that you read them. ;-)What you said sure sounds a lot like the last part of 1 Corinthians chapter 1 to me. :-)shaeman-what you say is true, but it does not invalidate the fact that verbal language can be misrepresented, misinterpreted, and misconstrued as well–at least if I have what I said in writing it is documented despite its ability to be taken out of context or deliberately misinterpreted
Wrote the following comment on Mar 11, 2006 at 8:01 am
Yes, thanks Simon!
Wrote the following comment on Mar 11, 2006 at 9:26 am
Actually there are many Christians discussing sex and most churches I attended talked about sex. Christianbook.com lists 598 resources for the keyword “sex.” I’d say that the real challenge is discerning truth from fiction.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 11, 2006 at 5:31 am
Wow, I get out of circulation with Xanga for a few days to come back to this swirl of info. on a kewl topic!! Thanks once again Simon for being willing to take a topic such as this and expose it many that read your site!! Dude, you’re awesome!!
Wrote the following comment on Mar 11, 2006 at 6:21 pm
Oh, no thanks to me is required. It was Pastor David and Reece who really bought this to the fore once more.Some good responses there, interestingly though no one aside Shae really mentioned some of what I considered the more interesting points, and thus far it also interests me that many of the churchy folk who I know visit my Xanga are choosing to say nothing at all. I have a couple of question to pose to Pastor David through this haze of a Saturday night/Sunday morning.
1. What exactly did you mean by “if someone were sexually exploiting singles”. I just want to understand what you meant there. Also, how exactly would the community deal with that do you suppose?
2. I would also like to know if any of the Christian folk here would approve of me doing a deal to have my daughter married off at 11 years of age and having sex within the marriage at 12. It should be fine by God right?
3. Am I allowed to have sex with my slaves? Or would that not be considered treating them well? I’m a little clear on that, I suppose I can’t since I have married the slave in question. And even if I did, she would really have no say in that, so I suppose then that the marriage might somehow be viewed as exploitation right?
Also David, though it’s a wonderful advertisment for the Christian life to say that Christians engage in more rumpy pumpy than their non-christian counterparts, I wonder if you could perhaps show us this wonderfulstatistic. I’m not saying I don’t believe it you understand, I am rather cynical about statistics as 87% are completely made up you know ;-)
Momichu says that many Christians are discussing sex, and that actually is probably very true. Indeed it seems they would rather buy books about it rather than seek the counsel of the likes of Pastor David and the people within their Christian communities? I wonder why that is?
I posed many questions in the post. Maybe people are just processing now? Maybe they don’t have anything to write because they have no answers to offer? That’s cool, I’m not sure the answer is there to be honest with you. Or maybe after a period of ingesting what I wrote I will see some other regular visitors to this site pipe up and share their thoughts? David seems to suggest on his Xanga though that this is expecting to much, and on that I think we both agree.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 12, 2006 at 9:49 am
Man, you’ve got a lot to say about life. I’ve been exploring your websites. You are quite creative. I was very impressed. Be blessed.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 13, 2006 at 6:16 am
I guess those questions, like all the other difficult ones, will go unanswered.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 13, 2006 at 7:16 pm
Come on people. At least 60% of the people who read me are churchy folk, yet no one has anything more to add? My regular readers have nothing to say? The cynic in me believes the reason why so many don’t wish to say anything is because it rather nails their true colors to the flagpole, and as for whatever reason (condemnation by chance?) they simply don’t wish to do that.
I have to admit that I find that somewhat frustrating. Everytime I have a good point or a challenging questio, everytime I mention something that people DO have opinions on, it seems most people retreat.
Toenail colors is indeed the way to go it would seem. :-/
Wrote the following comment on Mar 13, 2006 at 2:44 pm
annoying, isnt it simon?
Wrote the following comment on Mar 14, 2006 at 2:07 am
Indeed much of what I ask is rhetorical, I was particularly referring to the three questions I posted in the comments really. As for singles having less sex than married people, I guess I can understand that if we mean singles as in ‘people who are single’ rather than ‘people who are not married.’
Wrote the following comment on Mar 13, 2006 at 8:28 pm
You ask many questions. Some I considered to be rhetorical. I, for one, am still thinking over many of your questions. I do not want to provide inadequate answers or to oversimplify matters. Also, some stories I could relate to your entry are not really mine to tell. ;-) I do offer this very interesting article, though: The Case for Marriage. It is a book review…“One reason married people have more sex,” the authors state, “is that any single act of sex costs them less in time, money, and psychic energy. They have already made the huge investment in establishing and maintaining a sexual relationship and can lie back and enjoy the dividends.” And, the long-term emotional commitment of marriage brings more sexual satisfaction than found with cohabiting couples.
Wrote the following comment on Mar 16, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Well, this is off topic to an extent, but I can’t post at the site where you made your comment: Aside her love of Jesus she now loves chocolate and all things sweet.This made me smile. Why? I have a friend who used to get upset whenever she was expected to attend an office party. She didn’t want to be around people who drink too much. I could understand this since her dad was an alcoholic. But one day she was reading her Bible and realized that in Proverbs 23:21 God categorizes the drunkard and the glutton together. This changed her entire outlook on things and she was able to go to the parties so long as those she was with understood her aversion to alcohol and helped her to turn away from her adversion to food. ;-)