A QUESTION FOR THE CHRISTIANS AMONG YOU
The other day I was chatting with my girlfriend on the subject of Church, and how some are a little more relaxed that others. I was particularly referring to the preachers who lead them and then I used the term “liberal Christian.” This term got a surprisingly negative response and detracted from the actual conversation we were having. Clearly she felt that being ‘liberal’ was a bad thing, I wasn’t overly surprised as she is actually very conservative, but when I said that she became very defensive and claimed that if one was a Christian then being a conservative was pretty much par for the course.
The discussion didn’t end on the best of terms, and another attempt a few days later to smooth that over went in pretty much the same direction with her claiming that ‘liberal Christians’ do not believe the Bible and are basically ‘pick and choosing’ the bits of the Christian faith that suit their lifestyles. In other words they are not ‘on the level’ and should be viewed with a great deal of skepticism.
Then last night I watched the episode of the West Wing in which they recorded the live Presidential debate. In that republican runner used the term ‘liberal’ in an accusatory tone against the democrat. It reminded me of my conversation with Posh, and indeed many Christians, who seem to start foaming at the mouth whenever I use the word ‘liberal.’ Indeed the West Wing’s republican Presidential candidate character cited that even liberals now don’t like the word and have re-branded it as ‘progressive.’
So what’s the deal? Is liberal really a dirty word and if so why?
The dictionary has the following definitions:
Liberal
lib-er-al P Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
Conservative
con-ser-va-tive P Pronunciation Key (kn-s-rv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change.
Traditional or restrained in style: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
Cautious: avoiding excess; “a conservative estimate”
button-down: unimaginatively conventional; “a colorful character in the buttoned-down, dull-grey world of business”- Newsweek
The thing is, I would say that I am conservative in some ways (not many I’ll admit) but liberal in others. But isn’t everyone a little of both? Without that being a reality then wouldn’t we still, for example, be shipping black people around the world shackled as slaves?
Now I know a lot of you are who read this blog are Christians and I’m interested in hearing what kind of Christian would you say you were. If you were to be given a tag by someone (if not yourself) would that tag be that you were conservative or liberal? And what is your understanding of those tags?
I’m not looking to start a row, and I promise not to attack anyone for anything they say with regards to liberal or conservative. I genuinely am interested in what you understand of these titles and where you feel you lie and why.
I’ve noticed that when I ask pointed questions like this it tends to send many people into retreat. I understand why of course, some of the issues I’ve raised might mean that in responding people could reveal more than they are comfortable with. I’m not looking for anyone to give the pad responses of “God is the only one who can judge you” or “you must accept Jesus Simon and find your own path of faithfulness” etc. I’m fully aware of the standard responses to this question, I guess I’m asking for something a little more personal. And I’m hoping some of you will help me out on this one.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:21 am
I would describe myself as a independent christian. I was raised as a Catholic but I found a lot of hypocrisy in the Catholic church and in my own family.I do believe that God is the only one who can judge you. I try not to be too judgemental. It’s hard at times, especially when it comes to people I care about which is why I’m able to forgive my family for at times being a little hypocritical. For example.. When I got pregnant with my daughter at 15 my conservative Catholic mother wanted me to have an abortion. Catholics aren’t suppose to believe in abortion and I found it unforgivable that when it came to me she was ok with it. As a result I had no relationship with my mother for about 15 years. We both regret that.Now that my daughter is 17, I’ve thought about what I would want if I was in the situation that my mother was in when I was 15. I don’t believe that abortion is the right thing to do FOR ME. But I can’t say that if my daughter came home pregnant it wouldn’t cross my mind. I know how hard it is to raise a child when you’re a child and I would want to spare her some of the hardship that I went thru but on the other hand I know it’s wrong. I’d be torn. Just as my mother was. When it came right down to it, I would try to set aside my judgements, opinions and beliefs and help her with whatever decision she made. Hopefully God would know what was in both of our hearts and forgive.When it was time to have my daughter baptised the priest told us that she was the product of sin and that before the church would accept her we (her father and I) had to prove our faith. How the hell do you “prove” your faith? After seeking counsel at another church we were told that no one has a right to question our faithfulness and they happily baptised her. Seemed to me that the church was lacking some unity there.In the days before my son died I prayed constantly that God would save him. But he didn’t. I was so angry that I stood in the chapel at the hospital and informed God that as far as I was concerned there was no God and if there was I hated him and would never give him another second of my time. I thought I meant it. But 3 years later when my daughter was very sick and we thought she might die I found myself on my knees praying. She lived. I decided to give God another shot.I’m not currently affliated with a church. That doesn’t mean that I never will be, but for now I talk to God when it brings me comfort and I thank him when I should. I know he wouldn’t approve of some of my choices and for that I hope he doesn’t judge me too harshly. I have to believe that God knows that none of us are perfect and I honestly believe that he doesn’t expect us to be.So I call myself an independent christian because I know that most conservative christians wouldn’t like my way of thinking and I don’t argue about religion because I think that everyones relationship with God is a personal one. So I don’t form opinions about anyones religious beliefs and I don’t care what they think of mine.Sorry this was so long.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 12:28 pm
Some excellent comments so far. And don’t worry about how long they are. I, at least, will read every word. This isn’t a political question though, or at least I don’t think it is. But then maybe it is? Who knows, that is in itself part of the question I suppose, as if it were confusing enough. :-)
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 1:18 pm
There is probably a marked difference in the understanding of liberal and conservative in relation to the Christian faith and the use of those same terms in politics. In liberal Christianity there is an idea that the Bible isn’t, “all that”, to place it in layman’s terms (or at least so I can understand it) and that it really doesn’t say what it says. A more conservative Christian will say that the Bible is inspired, authoritative and sufficient for doctrine and guidance. The liberal Christian usually denies these points. Google terms such as, “Historical Jesus”, “Jesus Seminar”, “Bishop John Shelby Spong”, “Robert W. Funk” and you’ll get a plethora of readings on what is considered by many, at least here stateside, to be an example of liberal Christianity.
I would certainly place myself on the side of conservative Christianity. I did some posting on my xanga about “fundamentals” and “fundamentalist” and how the terms have been hijacked and have taken on a different meaning than that of what was intended originally. Conservative Christians, I would think, would adhere to certain “fundamentals”. Often earning them the title of, “Fundy”, by their more “liberal” bretheren and others. This, of course, is not a term of endearment.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:09 am
i am a little of both as well, but am troubled by the “black and white” approach many Christians take when it comes to voting.well, how do i explain it to people? i am conservative in the way i live my life, but there is no way i would impose my lifestyle on others. besides, the more educated and informed i become, the more “liberal” i become as well. case in point: i am morally against abortion, but i vote pro-choice for two reasons. i think a woman (and her family) have the right to choose- and i am speaking of the u.s. constitution when i say “have the right”. also, outlawing abortion won’t solve the problem. in fact, outlawing most things won’t solve the problem. people that want to get an abortion will still get them, albeit through back-door “operations” given by God knows who. as for other things, like the legalization of marijuana, i myself have never done any kind of drug (other than caffeine) but believe that legalizing it would be better for our economy. think of all the revenue we would recieve from taxing it (8 billion a year, estimated), all the jobs that could be created by growing and packaging it. plus it would take the fun out of doing it- part of the appeal of marijuana, for people my age anyway, is because it’s illegal. i agree that “liberal” has become a dirty word, but i think that it shouldn’t be. it’s my impression that more people vote “conservatively” (based on emotion) than “liberally” (based on logic) because it is easier. i mean, it takes time and dedication to properly inform yourself on the issues… much more time than, say, voting the way everyone else in your Church does.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:15 am
Well, I’m a Deist so I’ll not comment on Liberal vs Conservative Christian.
I’m a fiscal conservative and social liberal. That makes me either a liberal Republican or a conservative Democrat.
I just like it on top of the fence.
As in all things, when someone gets extremely bent out of shape at a label, it’s often because they have a personal insecurity that they don’t want to deal with.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 7:05 pm
So if you consider yourself a Christian, and believe the Bible (but maybe find it hard to grasp and outright contradictory at points), and you believe you are saved by grace, and you believe in the trinity, and all of that stuff, you should then consider yourself a conservative Christian? Hmm…
See that is what my friend thinks. I say I am a liberal Christian and she turns that around into I am someone who doesn’t believe the Bible. But this feels very much like accusation and in some respect unjust damnation. Is it not possible to be a Christian but at the same time somewhat struggle with elements of the Bible, but accept at the same that there are things that while you might not understand them they are no less true. How can anyone learn if no one is able to question?
The Bible is a book fraught with seeming contradiction that has invited interpretation for generations. It’s not a black and white book of rules, if it were then there wouldn’t be the various denominations and divisions among Christians, many of whom would call themselves conservative I’m sure. Notions like ‘once saved always saved’ and ‘election’ are just two subjects that will quickly set apart Bible believing ‘brothers and sisters.’ And surely BOTH groups could call the other out for not believing the divine written word of God and therefore perhaps labelling them as ‘liberal.’
So where does conservative end and liberal start? Maybe the confusion is in the fact that the titles themselves are simply unworkable. Surely most people are going to have views that are both liberal AND conservative and if this is indeed the case then how can someone say they are one or the other?I am deeply confused here. really I am.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:24 am
Your Majesty! Verily, findeth I ye problem de la disappearing comment yonder on my humble olde worlde abode. Twas not the demonic workings of witches brew but alac, merely the working of imperfect Man. Returneth ye to my humbler abode and there verily I say unto ye, thou wilst findeth a mere mortal explanation. Adieu!
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:40 am
I have similar concerns with the strange way religion and politics mix in the US and am pleased to read the candid contributions by the Christians above. This question is aimed at American Christianss so, being European and a bit of a heretic anyway it seems, to fundamentalists, I would rather not contribute at this time. However, this is an interesting topic and like General MacArthur, “I shall return!”
Wrote the following comment on Dec 11, 2005 at 5:33 pm
i agree with spiritus. i said this before, but being a conservative christian (which i believe i am) is in no way affliated with the way i vote (which, most would say, is liberal). on the flip side, i’ve known plenty of “cafeteria christians” that are die-hard republicans (which is synonymous with conservative now a days). i have a problem with anyone that contorts the bible into what they want it to be, saying that it says exactly what they want it to say. i have a problem with anyone who votes but isn’t informed (and yes, if an uninformed person votes the same way i’m voting, i have a problem with that).
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 5:03 am
When I was in college we had a course called Cultures and Traditions. The first work that we studied was the Bible. Not from a religious perspective, but from a historical perspective. The Old Testament as a recounting of the social mores of the people.
I think there is a problem with the terms conservative and liberal in this discussion. Perhaps fundamentalist vs interpretationalist (I’m sure that’s not a word, but it’s the only thing I could come up with) is more to the point.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 5:04 am
The “liberal – conservative†range in the faith is very wide simply because so many people “call†themselves Christian.On the liberal extreme are those who embrace the doctrine of “Universalism” which says that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and the whole world is bound for an eternal kingdom of heaven whether they have ever heard of Christ or not.On the conservative extreme are those who lock on to a set of non-negotiable precepts or fundamentals of the faith. They seek to adhere to them, sometimes dogmatically because they view them as the way to eternal life.The truth is somewhere in the mix and with it, the realm of the true believer.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 6:24 am
Literalism: taking the bible wordofr word literally.
Fandamentalism: holding to the “fundamentals” of Trinitarian Christianity, eg, the Trinity, Jesus rising from the dead, Salvation via the Cross, etc.
Liberalism (as far as Christianity is concerned): holding that the bible is open to interpretation andf the most important thing is the spirit of the law, not the letter, eg, showing love to your neighbour or even your enemy is more important than scriptural dictate. “Faith withoiut works is dead” and “The greatest of these is love” are favourites.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 6:25 am
Sorry for the errors. I must be more tired than I thought (yawn).
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 7:24 am
I think the question of Liberal Christians versus Conservative Christians comes from the mixing of church and state which I think is just wrong. As a Christain, I don’t see how one can be anything but liberal. But I’ve met my share of conservative Christains. In my opinion they are not focusing on living a ‘Christ-like life’ but on taking stands on issues of morality.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 7:24 am
I was raised catholic. I went to 13 years of catholic school and church every sunday. Even then I didn’t read the Bible. I don’t consider myself part of a religion anymore. I suppose if someone asked, I’d tell them I’m catholic, but my relationship with God is different now. I don’t need to go to church or confession to talk to him. I know this is very cliche, but I see God every day: in the sunset, in acts of compassion, sometimes (not often, but sometimes) in other people. I believe in him. Though I have never truly had any hardships in my life, when the time comes I will try my best not to blame him for them, but know that he is my support. I don’t believe the Bible word for word. I believe in the Virgin Mary, in Jesus and the Holy Ghost. The Bible has thousands of pages. Have you ever read a book in which you agree with ALL of the ideas presented? Most people haven’t even read it cover to cover. Sorry if this post seems scattered. I hope it helps.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 11:38 am
Oh goodness. I’ve just noticed my misspelling. christains. sheesh.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 12, 2005 at 1:41 pm
Simon, you’re right. In some instances one would be considered a “liberal” Christian, depending upon which group of folks you talk to and in other instances a “conservative” Christian. Within various ‘denoms’, there are “litmus tests” which are very seldom based in a logical exegesis of what the Bible speaks of. Most often, they are cultural/societal preferences placed in league with God’s Word as authoritative and being made important to an individuals Salvation. They, of course, are not.
I always thought it interesting, that in one breath a person questions the veracity of the Bible and in the other, speaks of Christ being the only “doctrine” we need follow. Only problem is, where do we read of Christ and who He was and what He did? The Bible! So if we, supposedly, cannot rely upon it because of varied interpretations, contradictions and the like, why is it that we can rely upon it’s text to give us any idea of who Christ is/was and what He did? The Bible and it’s written text, is the method by which God has chosen to communicate with His creation. There has to be a foundation to one’s faith; Christ revealed through the testimony of Scripture seems like the most viable route.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 13, 2005 at 8:07 am
I think the problem of defining liberal or conservative Christians is in the desire to define who we are in Gods view. Man is forever trying to ascertain whether someone is with them or against them. The pharisees often tried to get Jesus to agree with them or defy them so they could categorize him and lock him into their purpose; for good or bad. This was the wrong premise when dealing with God, and it leads us off course today as well. As Christians and as clergy (which I am) we waste a tremendous amount of time trying to line the ranks with those that believe and act like us. (Sounds like the Pharisees) In this effort to define who is with us or against us we label and to the ‘nth sub-stratae and in so doing miss out on the most important label or identity a human can have. That identity is “creation of God”. This is where the pharisees went wrong and their legacy continues. We can be staring into the face of the very image of God and try to label that face or attitude, or behavior as liberal, conservative, or whatever without making the effort to see that individual as who they really are. Loved, redeemed, wonderfully made. These are biblical terms by the way. Jesus didn’t use liberal or conservative. Who we are is defined by God not man. What matters is whether or not we let him tell us how much he thinks of us and where he would move us along in our lives. This is where the bible comes in and again we begin to disagree about whether a scripture is “for” our belief or “their” belief. Again we miss it. Scripture is about “God’s” belief. I truly believe the Bible is inerrant and “God breathed” (christianese for God wrote it thruogh man) in it’s original language. That belief flows out of what God is doing in and through me me, not who I believe God should be or what I am doing forGod. God defines me, not the other way around. How I believe, live and act; politically, socially, fiscally, comes out of His defining and redefining of my life. This is why we can’t get a finger on defining other Followers of Christ. We are trying to find out whether they are “for” or “against” us; rather than acknowledging that an individual is God’s creation and He is quite capable of directing and working through that which he created.
Wrote the following comment on Dec 27, 2005 at 11:26 am
Awww — You said Liberal Christian!!! I can’t believe you man! It’s an oxy-moron I tell you… A travesty!
Just bein a bit sarcastic… :)
Wrote the following comment on Jul 31, 2006 at 4:10 pm
All this discussion if you are liberal or conservative is a waste of time. In my view, christian spirit and values are what they are, yesterday , today and tommorrow. You can’t be putting labels to everything and everyone. Why question everything everywhere. We are supposed to lead a spiritual life on a earthly scene and love one another and not be fighting all the time. Surely there are some issues that can be approached in different attitudes ( just like the apostles did), but above all be tolerant up to the extent that the bible tell us to, ( find that out yourselves), so my brothers and sisters out there, start looking your own faults and then you may look at others. May God help us.
Wrote the following comment on Jul 31, 2006 at 4:33 pm
That’s all very well Ernst, it’s a lovely ttheory. But what happens when I don’t agree with your interpritation of what the Bible says? Then what huh?
Your answer sounds all very well my friend, but in the real world it falls at the first hurdle because, to be frank, it’s a standard Christian answer that has no real meat on the bones.